This is a first for this podcast: my guest today is not only a successful course creator – she’s an online course coach and consultant! Though Janelle Allen and I work in the same online space, we really aren’t competitors. That’s because we have different approaches and different niches we are reaching.

At the end of the day, I think [your online course] has to be something beyond making the sale. It’s about having an impact and helping someone.

-Janelle Allen

It was great to geek out over online courses and coaching with Janelle! Enjoy listening in, and don’t forget to check out her podcast too (link below).

In This Episode, We Talked About:

  • (3:02) What being an instructional designer means to Janelle and why she focuses on user experience
  • (5:42) Janelle’s perspective on understanding your market as online course creators
  • (6:58) Course content and the value of building learning communities
  • (10:14) Debunking myths about passive income
  • (11:54) Janelle’s podcast and how the power of listening has led her to expand her online offerings
  • (14:19) Focusing our efforts as course creators
  • (16:12) How Janelle teaches her students to validate their course concept and launch
  • (17:37) Favorite launch strategies and the importance of “ask campaigns”
  • (21:08) Comparing course platforms
  • (25:14) Why Janelle’s opinion of Udemy has shifted over time
  • (27:14) How to get testimonials and social proof
  • (30:31) Janelle’s favorite resources and tools
  • (31:37) Her perspective on how online courses can change lives

Thanks for listening and learning along with me today. Stay tuned for another great episode coming soon!

Jacques Hopkins: Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course and they're making a living doing, but not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way, and I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses. Hi, I'm John Hopkins, and this is the online course show.

Hey, everyone, jock Hopkins, and welcome to episode 94 of the online course. Show today I'm bringing on a successful course creator, but this is actually a first Janell. Allen is not only a course grader herself, but she is an online course coaching consultant as well, much like myself, but we found out very quickly that we're not so much competitors as we are more complimentary and.

Jenelle definitely has her specialties in ways that she does things. And I do mine as well, and it was just a wonderful conversation. We actually did reciprocal episodes. It was really cool because we scheduled a good like two and a half hours and she interviewed me for her podcast on all my courses and then I, we turned around and I interviewed her.

This episode is the part where I interviewed her and it was just an awesome conversation. If you go to her website Zinn courses.co. The big headline that shows up that says, create online courses that change lives. She is huge, huge, huge on making the best possible course, best possible experience. She has this term called instructional design.

She calls herself an instructional designer, and so she's big on the course itself and definitely feels like, you know, people spend a lot of time on the marketing, you know, to a fault of the course itself, right? You need to spend time on your marketing. In your course in getting the best possible experience for students, getting the best possible results for your students.

So that's a lot of what this episode was about, but it was really fun to just geek out with somebody else who's also kind of has a lot of experience with. Touching a lot of other people's courses and knows a lot about all different niches of courses. And so we chatted about a lot of different topics as it relates to online courses, how to get your students to finish their course, you know, refunds, all that good stuff.

So I'm not going to pitch all of my normal stuff that I [email protected]ses.co because. Maybe you've been listening to this podcast, and I'm just not the right fit to help you along your online course journey, but Janell may be so check out her stuff's in courses.co and let's move on to the full interview with Jenelle right now, and L welcome to the online course show.

Janelle Allen: Hey, thanks for having me, Jack.

Jacques Hopkins: It is my pleasure. So look, I want to start this way. Go through your website, Zen courses.co learning a lot about you. It's very clear that you are an instructional designer for maybe people that aren't familiar with that term. What does being instructional designer mean to you?

Janelle Allen: So being an instructional designer? Well, first, for people who aren't familiar with it, it's basically, it means I study how adults learn in particular and use that learning psychology and theory to create better online learning in my case. So as far as what it means to me, you know, I have always gravitated towards helping people to learn things.

It's just something that's just always showed up no matter what. You know, my first jobs as a teenager and all of that. And so it really means a lot to be able to help people to, at this point, not only learn, but to help others learn.

Jacques Hopkins: Okay. So it sounds like you're big on student experience. All right. So a lot of people spend all of their time on the marketing and just trying to get people inside the course.

And you know, it's the whole fire festival thing, right? You spend all your money and time and attention on the marketing, and then there's not really a product on the other end that you see that sometimes. So why are you so big on the student experience?

Janelle Allen: Because, you know, I would get emails from people. So when I started out, I had no intentions of like having an all my business where I was helping people with this stuff, right? I had a job and I was happy with my job, but I started getting, I had a completely different blog where I was just interviewing people with businesses because I've always been interested in entrepreneurship, and people started asking me questions about.

How to create their course content. As you said, there's a lot of info on marketing, but I was getting questions from people like, Hey, so and so, you know, told me how to sell my course, but I don't know how to create the content. I don't know how to approach the curriculum. I don't know what should be in the course.

I don't know how to make sure people complete my course or make sure they're having a good experience. So I tend to get people who are really dialed in and interested in making sure their learners get results and not just selling something and not getting, you know, not getting any refunds for the first 30 days.

So that's typically the type of people who come to me are looking for that experience. And so why that's important to me is because at the end of the day, I think that it has to be something beyond just getting the sale right. It's, it's about having an impact and helping someone. And so my work is all around making sure that your course is going to do what you promise, that you live up to your brand

Jacques Hopkins: promise. So that's the why. Let's talk a little bit of how, right. So I've got a course piano in 21 days. People learn piano from me. Like I know you haven't seen the course, but you know, if somebody is trying to learn piano through a course, like what are some of the ways from what you've seen that I can make that the best experience for my

Janelle Allen: students. So the first thing I tell people, you know, with a clients and people in my group program is to start with your learners. I get this question all the time. Where should I start? Where should I start? And you know, it kind of relates to what we were talking about earlier with business in general. Like you're going to listen to your customers.

So as a course creator, you want to start with your learners and listen and really dial into their needs. But more specifically. What is the result? What is the transformation that they're looking for? Why are they even seeking out information on this topic? Where are they trying to get to? So that's the first place that I start.

And then defining your course goal and working backwards from your course goal to say, okay, well how do they get here? What are the. Steps involved in getting to that goal. So that's the approach that I take is a backwards design approach as far as outlining the content. So that's the very first place that you would start. So that's the first part of the half.

Jacques Hopkins: Okay. So that's like curriculum, right? And the step by step process, typically somebody would go through. To have a transformation, like you said. Well, what about some of the more tangible components of a course, like supplemental materials, like interactive components, right? How do you feel about the things that can go along with a prerecorded course? So

Janelle Allen: when you say interactive components, do you mean. Tell me more about what you mean.

Jacques Hopkins: All right. So what I've seen people do, and then some of the things that I've done is like weekly or twice a week, Q and a webinars for the students, or a one on one calls.

You know, you get two one-on-one calls when you sign up for the course, or email support or forums or Facebook groups.

Janelle Allen: Yeah. So we're in a really interesting time with online courses, and I think that you can probably attest to this. When I first started seeing online courses come around, was about. 2010 and that was early.

Honestly, around 2013 you know, after like people, Tim Ferriss's book really resonated. That was when it started, but then around 2013 you really started seeing them more prominently. So it's still really young. And what I've noticed is things like you mentioned. You know, th the one on ones, the live Q and A's, the community forums.

Now we're seeing more of that because I think people understand that just giving someone a self paced course without any type of interactivity, any type of community doesn't work. So I love to see those components, you know, whether it's live Q, and, a, whether it's a, a forum, I think that every course should have some type of component that's going to speak to that affective domain of, feeling, you know, motivating us socially.

And in an emotional way, because that is part of learning. You know, there's, I'm geeking out here, but there's three domains of learning, cognitive, active, and psychomotor. So the community aspect, the interactivity really helps nurture that affective domain of learning. So I'm all for it.

Jacques Hopkins: So I've, I've always offered a level of interaction like with me. But to your point, I think interacting with like other students going through the same process is important as well. So one thing that I've been fighting for a long time, just because it scared me to moderate. Is creating like a Facebook community for my students. And I've done that recently and what's very interesting is people are interacting with each other, which is what I wanted.

Like I didn't want that to be like the main place people go to for support. Like, Hey Jack, I can't access my account. Like that's not what I want the Facebook group to be about. For people that are actually like recording videos of themselves, like being like. This is what I could do after day 14 and like it's inspiring other people and that is just so cool. And that's, that was exactly what I was hoping for, even though I bought it for so long.

Janelle Allen: That's the magic. And it, you know, I think of course graders, we do have that fear of, Oh my gosh, this is going to be more work on me. I'm always going to be stressed out trying to figure out how to get people to talk.

But it is magical when you see your students start to interact and help each other and Hey, it does take some initial work and prompts to. To break the ice. Right? So there is that aspect, but it's so valuable. Like you said, when you start to see students helping each other or sharing and motivating each other, and it really, people ask me all the time, how do I keep my learners engaged? How do I motivate them? Well, these are aspects that can help with that. So it's something I highly recommend.

Jacques Hopkins: I think on this note, one of the things that I read on your website is you said, I don't believe courses are passive income. I'm curious your thoughts on that. Do you think they can ever be, you know, just passive income or is it just exactly what we're talking about here?

Janelle Allen: I have a love hate relationship with that term. Like we were talking earlier and you said it, I got a little, part of me always cringes when I hear it because I, the reason is because a lot of people I think is misunderstood. People think they're going to create a course and never have to do any work after they create the material.

Right, and that's not what it is. You have, you're on version five of your course. I'm teaching a group program. I'm on version two this summer. I'm going to do a complete refresh. It's not passive. You're putting in work, you're going to have support questions that come in. And I think people understand passive as no work.

So I like to frame it more so. Well, first I like to tell people online courses are work. You shared that it took you eight months from idea to finally launching, right? So there's work involved in, on average, it takes two to three months to create your course content. So I just like to debunk that. But the other part of it is, for me, I frame it as recurring revenue.

To me, that is really what it's about. Having a certain amount, you know, outside of the learning. When we talk about the money aspect, having a certain amount of revenue coming in regularly, predictable, recurring revenue, it's just how I prefer to frame it, to get away from people thinking, Oh, this is passive. I'm gonna sit on the beach and make $1 million in a day. That's not how it works. It's not how it works.

Jacques Hopkins: So I think this is a good point to mention a little bit about your podcast. Cause you've mentioned our previous conversation several times, and I should tell the audience that you have a podcast about online courses as well.

And we are reciprocating here. So you had me on your podcast right before we started recording this. We got into my story a little bit. So that's, that's what that was. So why don't you go ahead and mention kind of a little more about your brand and your podcast and your offers.

Janelle Allen: Yeah, so my podcast is called level up your course, and my website is now's in courses that CEO, it's going to be transitioning, but that is Xin courses is my brand right now.

And you know what I offer primarily are my group program, for course creators who typically, that group program is great for consultants and coaches who have a proven process and want to turn it into a course. But they've just been struggling. They need mentorship, they need community. You know? Piggyback on what we talked about earlier and they need accountability.

And so, you know, we talked about the power of listening when I interviewed you for my show, and that's exactly how the group program came about. People were emailing me saying, I really wish you had like a three month program. I just need some accountability. I really wish there was something because.

Prior to that, I had two offers. I had my high end consulting, which is usually for CEOs and founders who have million dollar businesses. And then I had a one-on-one for, you know, individual entrepreneurs, but I didn't have anything for people who were kind of in the middle. So the group program I'm really excited about, I'm doubling down on that.

It's called finish your damn course, and I'm doubling down on that. And that is going to be where I'm putting most of my energy because. It is so amazing to wake up in the morning and see people who have just gotten through the mindset mental blocks from, I can't do this to, Oh my gosh, I have my outline and I have my marketing messaging and I'm about to launch this thing, and people are responding, and I just love that feeling.

So I'm doubling down on that. And then my second offer is still the consulting that I do. And that's typically CEOs, founders of small teams, like I said, who have, you know, they have plenty of money and marketing, but they just don't have the bandwidth to apply instructional design. So they want to make their existing courses better. So I work with them to do that.

Jacques Hopkins: So I love the name of the group coaching program, and let's say somebody goes through it and they do finish their damn course, and it's up to your standards of instructional design and whatnot, but you know, you can't just focus on that side of things either. So when I'm helping people, I tell them, you know, I like to keep things as simple as possible.

I say. Pick one platform, like a YouTube or a podcast or a blog or something like pick one and be consistent and put out great content around that free content and not let that be the main traffic driver, at least initially to your opt in or your course or whatever. No. What kind of, what kind of traffic and marketing messages are you recommending to the people in like your group coaching program?

Janelle Allen: For example? Yeah. So I tell people the same thing, but also one of the prerequisites for my group coaching program is to have an email list. And you know, I, I was on the fence about that for a long while, but I saw that people who had an email list, they were more successful. People who didn't have an email list and who joined.

They also typically didn't really have a presence. They weren't putting themselves out there, and so it was just, it was harder for them to get traction if they didn't have those things in place. So email marketing is, I mean, I'm sure it's the same for you, is a huge driver of my business, and I know how powerful it is to be able to launch to your list.

So that's really what we focus on in the program as far as additional marketing channels. I tell people the same thing, you know, have a podcast or a YouTube channel, whatever it is, but pick one. You know, a lot of times people get overwhelmed trying to do five different things and they burn themselves out.

So between, you know, between whatever they choose and email marketing, that's where we focus when it comes to, to marketing. And what I help people do is to just learn the process of launching, you know, the creating your timeline. Marketing your email copy and your sales page. I don't really get into the weeds of instructional design, you know, at this point.

So there's room to do more of that. But in the program we really just focus on the fundamental things that you need. Cause there's a lot of different aspects of launching a course.

Jacques Hopkins: There's no question about that. So let's talk about launching a little bit. Yeah. So when somebody does finish their course, do you have them do a launch and then from there on it's like available 24 seven or do you have them do the multiple launches a year? Evergreen launches? Like what are your thoughts on launches?

Janelle Allen: Yeah. So first I should take a step back and say the program gets you from validating. So we walk through validating with your audience all the way up to launching a live. Version of your course. So what I encourage people to do, and, and you and I talked about this, is to teach it live.

You know, instead of trying to create a self paced course and then trying to figure out how to do sales funnels for the first time, if this is your very first time launch it live, you're going to get some feedback so you can get testimonials, you can really get to see where the holes are. And so that's what the program focuses on.

You know, we. I tried to take away the pressure of having a bully Polish, self-paced course and say, you know what? We're going to do your pilot, and that's what we're gonna focus on. Yeah. That's what we do in the program.

Jacques Hopkins: Very cool. And that's kinda like where you're trying to get people to by the end of the program is kind of launching a live version of their course, but for people that come to you outside of that program or with one of your other programs that are beyond that. Right. What are your general philosophy and what do you like to do regarding lunches.

Janelle Allen: Yeah. So for people who come beyond that are usually working with me in a consulting fashion, and I'm a big fan of launches. I'm not, honestly, I'm not, I haven't done a ton of a evergreen funnels. What I'm really good at is email marketing and launching.

So launching a number of times. But I'm, I'm now starting to dabble into putting together sales funnels. So I could probably take some pages from your book. But what I usually do with my clients, we're putting together launches. So we're putting together, you know, the email campaigns and the sales pages and all of that good stuff. And that's, that's what I typically work with clients on.

Jacques Hopkins: What's your, which one of your, favorite lunch strategies? Is it like the Jeff Walker product launch formula or just webinars, or are you have your own approach?

Janelle Allen: I do a blended approach, so I've tried Jeff Walker's formula, and for me it's been.

It's hit or miss. What I found is my audience doesn't resonate with video very well. They are listening to my podcast or they're, they're really engaged with my emails. So when I did Jeff Walker with, with video, it didn't really work that well. So I do a version of Jeff Walker, but I focus on. Written content.

So with emails. So I like Jeff Walker. I really love, Ryan Levesque's ask methodology of getting that deep dive. So I always like to start with surveying your audience, kind of the Jeff Walker a shot across the bow, and, you know, getting people involved, getting their input. And sometimes I go deeper into some of the stuff that Ryan, the Beck's.

Talks about in his book of really digging into that data. And again, going back to listening and starting with your learners and finding out what their challenges are, and then just, you know, having that prelaunch sequence the Jeff Walker talks about, and then getting into the launch content.

Jacques Hopkins: I'm glad you mentioned. The ask method because we talked about a lot about listening to your audience on your podcast and how there was a couple of times where I heard back from people that they were struggling in an area or something was kind of missing. And then I filled in those holes on my program with either making my course better or adding supplemental courses or resources to make it better.

But I didn't mention to you that one of those scenarios came from an ask campaign, and it was when I added like the melody and ear training course to my portal. Is that. I did the ask campaign. and basically, you know, you mentioned Ryan, Lubeck, his book ask and he walks you through in that book for the people that haven't read it, he walks you through exactly how to ask, who to ask and what to ask.

And I did that for both non purchasers. And purchasers in both groups, like the purchasers said, the course is great, but I would love to learn, you know, some year training and the non purchasers would say, well, it looked great. I wanted to buy it, but I felt like the year trading was missing. So I heard that from both groups.

So it was a, it was an obvious thing to have to add, but I wouldn't have necessarily done that if I hadn't done one of these. Ask campaigns on budget brought that up.

Janelle Allen: Oh, I'm glad that you mentioned you did that with your non purchasers tubes. That is something that is so often overlooked. A lot of times if people have, you know, if people don't buy, we think, Oh well they don't want to hear from me again.

And that's not always true. And there's. Tons of valuable data that you can get from your non purchasers that can help you to make more sales the next time around. So I definitely recommend surveying your non purchasers. I do it all the time. In fact, if you have a live program and you have a small list, I have even manually sent emails so people know that I really care and you wouldn't believe the responses I got when I started out, when I could do that. And you know, it's not always scalable, but if you can do it, it's great.

Jacques Hopkins: So once somebody is beyond the, the live version and they have, then they're going to like a prerecorded course. Which one of your favorite course platforms or somebody that used to host it on.

Janelle Allen: I'm a big fan of Thinkific. I've tried out, you know, when I first thought was in, of course, as I was trying out all of the platforms and you know, I had a, a nice chart for everyone, which I'm happy to share with your audience that it was a comparison chart.

I settled on Thinkific after, you know, spending money, having courses on all different platforms. I found it was like, you know what? I think if it, because they have, in my opinion, as a learning designer, they have the most learning features. Out of all of them. Not to say anything bad about any of the others.

I'm also a fan of podia. If you're just starting out and you have other things that you want to sell, like digital downloads, memberships, podia makes that really easy to have a storefront and do all of those things. So thank you. If it gets what I use, Podio is probably my choice for people who are just starting out.

Jacques Hopkins: So I'm not familiar with podia and I'm curious about your comparison chart as well, because typically when somebody asked me for a course platform, I don't necessarily just recommend one like I might go to is click funnels. Not because it's the best like, membership site, but because it does a lot.

And is that what podia does? Like with click funnels, you also have a order forms. You have landing pages, you have funnels. There's all kinds of stuff in there, which is why I recommend it

Janelle Allen: so. I'm thinking of like five different things to say at once. I had to stop talking about technology so much because I found that beginners were getting stressed out and they weren't creating anything.

They were just spinning all of their time. I literally have people in my audience who had bought a course platform and paid for it for a year and then emailed me and were like, yeah, I never created anything, so I. I don't talk about it as much, but to answer your question, so there's, there's two different categories, of course, platforms.

So there are WordPress based by like, these are usually like plugins or themes that build on top of WordPress. And these typically are more of. What I call learning management systems. There's not, in the entrepreneurial domain, there's not really real learning management systems that you would see in the academic environment.

And what I mean by that is tracking and reporting and knowing exactly where your learners are in the course that doesn't really exist, but the WordPress plugins and themes give you more of that. Like LearnDash is probably my favorite one in that vein. It's very customizable. If you care about control and customization, go with a WordPress learning management system.

Checkout LearnDash is probably the best one out there. Now, if you're looking for convenience and you just want to get something that's going to allow you to sell quickly and put your content up, and you don't want to fiddle with the technology that is a hosted platform, so that's something like Thinkific, teachable, podia, a resume.

Kajabi. All of those where they host it, they have all the features, you upload your content and you set it for sale. So when you talk about those, my, I already mentioned my two favorites. Thank you as number one. And then podia when you mentioned click funnels. So for me, I use lead pages as my, you know, my sales page and my landing page and you know, capturing leads as well.

So. That is. That to me is where that falls into the spectrum. So getting people into my email list and then I use drip, drip, or ConvertKit. ConvertKit is actually something I'm planning on switching to, but drip is also very powerful, probably more powerful than the average person needs to get people into your email funnel so that you can nurture that relationship and then get them to purchase.

But once they have purchased your course, then. They're going to go to your platform where all of the content is delivered. So for me, that is Thinkific.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, I like Thinkific a lot as well. And as a, as a membership site itself, like it's better than click follows, but I just like having a lot. I like a platform that can do a lot of things and do things well, even though if it's the best.

But you mentioned too like different categories of like. Platforms, right? Ones that are kind of WordPress based and then ones like Kajabi and that are on kind of their platform, but then you can make it to where it's on your domain. I would argue there's actually like a third category with things like you, to me, where they hosted and then it's only on their site. Right? Yes.

Janelle Allen: Yes, absolutely. You to me is, I used to get a lot of questions about you to me. Should I just, should I go with you? To me, you know, people would just be so confused about what to start with, and I used to tell people, no, why would you sell on you? To me, when you can create it on your own platform and you own 100% of it and you don't have to worry about, you know, you, to me, putting all these discount coupons and.

You haven't to compete with that with all these other people, but you know what? I interviewed a woman named crystal washer and a couple other people who have had success with you. To me in that they used you to me to validate the market. When I first started out, I never thought about it like that, and I couldn't argue with it.

You know, they used you to me to see if people would buy a course on their topic. And once they, once they validated that and they built an audience and they had sales, they transitioned away from you to me. And at that point people knew their name. And so they had kind of built that recognition. So I think that you, to me, can be powerful.

I mean, that category is that we're talking about our marketplaces and you to me, can be powerful if you're strategic with it, but at some point you do need to transition onto your own platform and own your own

Jacques Hopkins: stuff. That is a, that is a cool strategy. Thank you for, for sharing that. I'm sure people will, will kind of take that and run with it if people that are struggling with the validation part.

Cause that sounds, that sounds like a fairly straight forward way to, to validate something. One of the advantages of using something like you to me is that you get to use their marketing and their, a lot of their tools built in for people to find you. And so that, that's really cool. Thanks for sharing that.

Janelle Allen: Yeah.

Jacques Hopkins: So next, I want to ask you about testimonials, right? Cause when I first put my course out there, it was really hard to sell. And I think one of the reasons it was hard to sell is because nobody had really taken it before. Right? There wasn't that social proof testimonials. So what have you found as being some of the best ways to actually get testimonials from people?

Janelle Allen: Yeah, for me, the best way, and I tell people this all the time, start with services. Start with services. I get people, you know, if you are someone who's just starting out and you're creating a new business, or you want to create a course and do some coaching, do something one-on-one because it's going to do two things.

One is going to validate that people will pay you money. To work on this thing. It's going to actually, it's going to do three things, and we talked about this before. It's going to tell you where people get stuck. So kind of where those holes are, where those gaps are, and the common themes that people say they need help with, but it's also going to give you testimonials.

And it's a great way to get some really killer testimonials by, you know, you haven't worked one on one with someone and been able to help them with that topic. and I would argue there's a fourth thing. At some point you're gonna, you're gonna get your process down. You're going to have what we call a proven process. And once you have a proven process, you are ripe to create an online

Jacques Hopkins: course. What about those that already have courses? Like what's the best, yeah.

What's the best way to just go about asking for testimonials when you've got a system that's proven, you've got sales coming in, you know, there's probably right ways and wrong ways to go about asking for testimonials from people.

Janelle Allen: Yeah. I think it comes down to exactly that asking. Right. So one of the things that I, I noticed a lot of course creators don't do is at the end of the course, it's just, of course is over. Have a great day. You know, there's no closing of the, it's, you know, kind of like what I call a clean close, which is asked, you know, what I like to do is put a, a survey, you know, I use type form, but there are other tools out there that asks people, you know, how the course went and then ask them for a testimonial so you can, that's just one simple way that you can do that.

You can include that into your course so that it's. Automated. Another thing is if you have, and I think a lot of times we are blind to this, but if you have something like a Facebook group or a Slack channel, and people are saying great things about your course and how it helped them, screenshot that, maybe ask them if you can use that as a testimonial and boom, you've got testimonials.

Jacques Hopkins: So next I want to ask you, you know, we talked about the platforms for the courses, but let's, let's talk about some of the other software and pools, even though you said you didn't really talk about that much. Like, do you have any other besides course platforms, other software tools that you like to use that supplement that?

Janelle Allen: Yeah, I'm actually gonna pull up my resources page, and while I'm doing that, so you mentioned click funnels earlier. I'm not super familiar with click funnels, but you asked about podia. And does it do some of the similar things. So I forgot to answer that, but podia allows you to have a course, a membership, and digital downloads.

So that's, those are the three things. And they also have some email marketing capabilities built in. So I just wanted to make sure I came back and answered that. Cool. All right, so tools and resources. So, you know, I'm a big fan of ConvertKit for email marketing. I'm checking out, Brennan Dunn's, which I know you're familiar with, right message, and that is.

Kind of the new tool that everybody's talking about. So I've been playing around with that, but when it comes to creating a course, if you're running something live one, or maybe you're doing a workshop to validate your idea before you create a course, Crowdcast is one of my favorite tools for doing.

Webinars and workshops and having interactivity. You can have polling features. If you're doing a program like I am, I use zoom, which is what we're talking on right now. And then as far as surveys and quizzes type form is my number one go to. So yeah, those are the main tools that I use.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, I'm checking out your, your resources page right now, as well as in courses.co/resources and I think you pretty much hit the ones that are on there.

That's great that you have those top tools. And I've seen some people resources page where there's like a hundred things on there and it's like, you don't even know where to start. So this looks like a. A nice, solid list of, for people to check out. So yeah. That's great. So look, I just kinda have one more, one more kind of big question for you before we wrap things up.

And, and it revolves around these two words that I've see on your website several times. And the two words are change lives. So even right on the front, right on the homepage, the biggest thing, the thing that draws my eyes in it says, create online courses that change lives. What does that mean to you?

Janelle Allen: So, you know, it kinda comes back to what we talked about at the top, which is, look, my strength has never been to just talk about selling, you know, six figure courses.

That's just not, it's not what's going to feed me. It's nice, you know, it's great to have money, but I'm really in this to change people's lives. So, you know, to help as many people as I can. And also. To make sure people are getting results so that their lives, you know, they, they can change the lives of others through their work as well.

So that's what that means to me. And I find that the people who resonate with me also have a similar mission. You know, they don't just want to make money and then people not get any results. They want to really impact lives. So. My work is all about helping people to create courses that are going to change lives by delivering results and also profitable courses. So that's what it means.

Jacques Hopkins: It's beautiful. Thanks so much to know. This has been a pleasure, and I mean, I think this is, this is something I love geeking out about, you know, the in depth stuff of, on the courses. I'd definitely love to have you back on the podcast one day, but thanks so much for being candid and sharing all this with the audience.

Janelle Allen: Anytime. Thanks, Jack.

Jacques Hopkins: All right, take care. All right. That is going to do it for another episode of the online course show. Thanks again to Janell for joining me on the show today and thank you again, listener for listening to this podcast and continuing to come back. It's continuing to grow and get into more ears, and that is just so cool.

You can find all the show notes from today's episode by going to the online core sky.com/ . 94 and guess what? There's more episodes of the online course show coming at you real soon.