I’ve got a huge update for you today over here at The Online Course Guy! I teased this on last week’s episode, and now I’m excited to announce (drumroll please) that a brand new co-host will be helping me host this show from now on. And he is none other than David Krohse, longtime listener of the show and budding course creator who also helps me run things over on my Facebook is going to be a great addition to these interviews and conversations on the online course world. 

I’m looking forward to being able to bounce things back and forth with him along with our guests, and for both of us to be able to share what we’re learning along the way. I also think it will be cool to discuss this from the perspective of course creators who are in different stages of our journeys. With that in mind, I’m interviewing David today so that you can get to know him and kick this new status quo off to a great start. 

That feeling of getting that first sale is unbelievable.

David Krohse

In This Episode, We Talked About:   

  • (3:20) The story behind where David is today and the process of becoming debt-free
  • (20:32) Learning some financial lessons the hard way
  • (21:52) How David got into listening to this podcast – and a funny story about how his wife enrolled in my first co-host’s course 
  • (26:24) Our first interaction and David’s growing interest in creating his own online course
  • (28:22) What’s changed about my Online Course Accelerator course and why David committed to enrolling
  • (30:03) The response I’ve seen so far to making the Online Course Accelerator practically free
  • (30:26) David’s course creation process and launch
  • (37:06) Adjusting launch strategies and early sales
  • (38:02) What David envisions for his businesses online and offline
  • (41:33) Thoughts on having David join the show as a co-host
  • (42:52) My recent entry into the 2 Comma Club
  • (43:55) Some random questions for David to close out the episode (Cake may or may not be involved)

I hope you enjoy hearing our conversation and getting to know David a bit today. And I hope you’ll stay tuned for another great episode with our brand new format – coming soon!

Links

Get Into My Online Course Accelerator

David’s Online Course

Piano in 21 Days

The Online Course Guy

Jacques Hopkins: Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course and they're making a living doing it, but not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way, and I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses.

Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins, and this is The Online Course Show.

And off we go. Welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. This is The Online Course Show. I'm your host Jacques Hopkins, and I'm excited to dive into all things online courses with you.

All right guys, I teased it last week and here is the announcement for you about this podcast. I'm really excited about it and I think it's going to help bring the value here. Even higher for you guys.

That update is that I'm bringing a cohost on for The Online Course Show so going forward. The plan is for me to continue doing the interviews myself, but for the rest of the episodes, you'll have both myself and another person chatting it up and discussing all things online courses, and I think this allows for several things.

So first of all. It will be a lot easier to give you guys updates on my own online course journey. I think that it can be a little bit clunky and awkward to give updates on myself when it's just me. And for those of you that have been listening since the very beginning, you've heard, say those first 20 episodes where it was both me and Nate Dodson, that's something that's been missing from the show where we go back and forth.

You know what's been going on with your course of the past week and giving those updates. I think there's a lot of value there that I want to bring back, so when there's someone else there and talking with me, I think it's just a lot smoother to be able to give those updates. Another advantage to having a cohost is it gives another perspective and another story for you guys to follow along with.

My cohost has an online course as well, but where I've done seven figures in course sales, he's done about $5,000 in sales, and so he's just at the beginning stages. And finally, this will give us an opportunity to talk after I play the interviews for you guys, and we'll offer a perspective on what we just heard from the guest.

So after you hear the interview going forward, then me and the cohost, we'll discuss that interview and what we got out of it. So without further ado, going forward, my co hosts will be David Krohse. Many of you that have joined the free Facebook group may be familiar with David already because he's very active in there. He's actually a moderator of that group.

And David has been listening to this show since the very early days. He's very passionate about online courses, and like I said, he's got an online course of his own, and I know that he's just going to be able to bring great perspective to the show and offer great value to you guys.

And so you guys can get to know David a little bit better. He's exactly who I interviewed on today's episode. David's story is absolutely fascinating. One of my favorite parts is where he said he randomly found my podcast and he really enjoyed listening, even though he had zero intention of actually making an online course himself.

Fortunately, I got through to him eventually through the podcast, and he decided, and online course was in fact right for him. So listen in with me and let's get to know the new cohost of the online course show. Here's David Krohse.

Hi David. Welcome to The Online Course Show.

David Krohse: Hey, how's it going?

Jacques Hopkins: It's going well. All right. So how did you get into the world of online courses?

David Krohse: Well, I mean, it was, I mean, I got to say like I didn't set out to create an online course, and when I look back on this story, it's like totally just serendipity that I found your teachings. And the other thing that's interesting is just, I mean, there was a lot of tragedy and failures that happened on the way that set me up to have success with this.

Going back to just like entrepreneurial beginnings. You know, I was a kid with my brother. We were selling cards door to door, just out there hustling, you know, sell a hundred sets of cards to win a little Walkman. And it wasn't even name brand. And then we started a lawn mowing business. So from a very young age we were out there.

I was probably 11 and my brother was 13 when we started doing lawnmowing. So always was kind of a hustler. Definitely learned at an early age, just like the difference between working for yourself and working for somebody else. The thing that highlights that, like, I dunno, my brother and I just loved like digging holes.

Like I remember we rounded up these neighborhood kids and we tried to dig like a swimming pool in the backyard and we just worked back there all day long. And then when we moved to Iowa from Kansas we had this area of bike trails and we'd go down there for just hours and like build these jobs, build tabletops, build berms, and just have a blast because could see the vision of where we were going.

My dad, he noticed this and then there was this project where he needed to put in like drain tiling and so he wanted a 60 foot trench bill and he's like, you guys love digging holes? And he just had us dig these holes. Or dig the 60 foot trench. And that was not the same at all. I mean, talk about just the difference between being excited and working hard on something that you're excited about and just having to do it as a job. So that's kind of my background.

So at the end, I jumped forward to the end of high school and, yeah, I was kind of well-rounded at all the subjects and so I was really trying to figure out what I should do. And you know, I loved reading car magazines, so I got MotorTrend, I got car and driver, and I'd always been fascinated by technology.

So I've done reports on like hovercraft and like hydrofoil planes or hydrofoil boats that would like lift up out of the water. I just love technology and I was good at math and science, so I was like, man, I need to become an engineer. And so, you know, you can probably relate to this. I know you can, but, I ended up going to Iowa state because I was like, I'm going to become a mechanical engineer. So you probably didn't know that.

Jacques Hopkins: Cyclone fan. Go Cyclones.

David Krohse: Yeah. But really quickly, I got in the classes and I got to think that you had the same experience, but I looked around and I was like, God, somebody doesn't fit in here. I mean, did you have that experience?

Jacques Hopkins: Well, for me, like my whole life, like I thought I was going to be an engineer ever since I was in like kindergarten, first grade, like five years old.

Everybody was telling me I needed to be an engineer. So at first I actually did fit in, but like the more I read entrepreneurial books and got into that whole world, the less and less I was fitting in into the engineering world.

And even today, like I hang out with some of the guys I used to work with. We have this group of five guys we hang out with once a month and they're all still engineers. And so it's funny, they always bring up engineering conversations and I always just bring it back to something completely non-engineering because I'm just, I'm done with that world.

David Krohse: See, that's, I mean, I looked around the room and I mean, number one, I was in a lecture hall with like 200 people and there was not a woman within like 20 feet of me.

So that was awkward. And then there were just differences in like personal hygiene. And like, I was just like, man, I don't fit in. But you know, the big thing was like, I don't know, like, you know, again, I, I love reading about technology, but it's like, personally, if the toaster breaks, like I'm gonna go throw it out and get a new toaster.

And like my dad would work on our cars, but the only way I ended up out there, like I love reading about cars and I love reading about new advancements in the cars. But the only way I'd end up out there as if my dad was like, David, I need help holding the flashlight. And I'd go out and hold the flashlight and then I'd go back inside.

So, you know, I just really quickly, I was like, I can handle the coursework, but it's just not me. So after that first semester, I mean, I was like done with engineering. I ended up in a class, it was just like a general composition English composition class, and I had to do a research paper on something that might like affect my future.

And so I decided that I would actually do this research topic on chiropractic care. And I'll tell the story of my chiropractic was on my radar and it's pretty crazy story. But when I was five, my brother Joshua was seven. We were riding with my mom from Kansas up to South Dakota and this little Subaru station wagon, and we were going highway speed and a UPS truck didn't see us.

It T-boned us from the side. And so somehow, I mean like I didn't get injured a bit in this car accident, but my brother Joshua he was like slammed it in the side of the car hard enough that his skull was fractured, like right above his eye, up to the very top of his head. So probably like four inch, just like an open gash on his forehead, up to the top of his head.

So I mean, I was a little guy, but I do have vague memories, but we wrote in the back of these UPS truck and Joshua had blood coming down half his face. And we got to this rural farm house. And they got nine one one call cause that was before cell phones. This is like 1984. So anyways, like within 45 minutes or an hour, a helicopter came.

My mom and my brother got loaded into this helicopter, taken to a hospital. I got left there in that farmhouse with this older couple who fortunately, you know, kept me safe until my dad could come and pick me up the next morning. But they got Joshua over to the hospital. They did a skull repair surgery, and you know, basically he was in critical condition for a couple of days, but they were able to get them to stability or they're like, he's not going to die.

A few days after that, they were able to check like just his brain function and he had lost short term memory, but he still had his long term memory and still had his intelligence. And so our family stayed in a Ronald McDonald house for like over a week. While he was like, just trying to get stable.

We got to come home and we just felt super fortunate that like, I mean it was like this near death that he, he had made it through it. So we make it home and then my brother starts to have these terrible headaches. So, I mean, half days, an entire days he'd be in a dark room. And I remember, I mean, you know, we'd just be like in the house and you know, I'd be making noise and my mom would be like, you gotta be quiet your brother has a headache.

So, I mean, I can't imagine my parents just were so frustrated having a seven year old kid that was just stuck in his room. But my mom they ultimately got referred to take him to this pediatric neurologist and this neurologist checked my brother out and ultimately told my mom, after doing this thorough workup, the neurologist told my mom, you should try taking him to a chiropractor.

And so my mom was a nurse. Chiropractic wasn't even our vocabulary, but she took in. And within a couple of months, my brother, his headaches were like fixed. He stopped having headaches. You know, my brother's 42, 43 now and doesn't have headaches. And so that was where our family learned about chiropractic.

My mom had whiplash too. And so she went in and she got great results. And so, you know, jump again to kind of freshman year of college. And I researched chiropractic and it had been this like, you know, the best, you know, one of the most helpful things in our lives, and I don't know if you know this, but chiropractics history, like chiropractors get called quacks, like medical doctors.

Did you know this Jacques?

Jacques Hopkins: I mean, it's a funny word. I think of two and a half men, wasn't the character a chiropractor, and they would make fun of him because he'd always introduce himself as a doctor and they'd be like, Oh, you're not a doctor.

David Krohse: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that kind of thing. But, no. In the history of chiropractic, I mean, the medical profession basically tried to put chiropractic out of business and just, you know, I thought chiropractic was a part of the medical profession because we were referred by a neurologist.

But there are that freshman year of college, I'm learning that like a huge segment of the population has the same amount of respect for a chiropractor as they do like a used car salesman. And so I was like, man, this profession, I like, it sounded good, but I don't want to like not have respect. And so basically I spent the next three years like trying to figure out what to do.

I was a swim coach, so I thought maybe I should go into coaching. But I looked around at the swim coaches that did it full time and they were like all divorced because they, that job you're doing every night mornings, you're doing like five to seven in the mornings and then every week and you're at a swim meet.

I thought maybe I'd want to teach like second through fifth grade, but I'd come home from like two hours of coaching and just be exhausted. So anyways, finally, senior year, I actually went and visited the chiropractic college and like, people there were so excited and I went and shadowed other chiropractors.

I was like, okay, this profession is good. Like, you know, the people that are doing it, love it and I'm going to go ahead and do it. So went to chiropractic school, got out, and I went and did this job in Washington. I got to work for my friend's father. And you know, the deal was that he actually, he really needed help from another doctor, but he hired me on, he was in network with like all the insurances.

The laws were supposed to change out in Washington where I'd be able to see all his patients, even though I didn't personally have a contract with the insurance companies. The law didn't change. And so like for the 18 months I was out there like it was like utterly unsuccessful. Like I just would go out and try to bring in new patients.

I'd meet people in the community and they'd come in and like, basically it was like, if you want to see doctor Krohse, you have to pay $60 and you don't get to use your insurance. Or you can see doctor Rendell and it's like 10 bucks and so no success there. So anyways, I decided I was going to move back to Iowa and open my chiropractic office, and I was just like, I'm going to stack the deck in my favor.

So number one, my old roommate, he had been practicing in Washington DC and he had been specialized in this technique called active release techniques. And it's, it's this like specialized type of soft tissue work that's like famous among athletes. And he was getting like seven new patients a week just from that.

And so I went and got fully certified in that. I went and hired like a coaching company. So I signed a contract where it was five years and $36,000 where I'd get like, I talk with the coach every other week and I'd be able to go to seminars and I'd have access to like basically an online course portal.

So just for reference for anybody out there thinking about doing a course and you feel guilty selling it for 1000 bucks, like, I mean, I was happy to fork over $36,000 so, you know, perspective is everything. Anyways. Open this office. You know, at the end of chiropractic school, I had $135,000 in debt, and then to open my chiropractic office, I took out another $110,000 in debt.

And, I had my parents co-signed on the loan. So I mean, a ton of stress. It my monthly like flow of money out of my office was $15,000 a month before I even got my doors open. But I was like, Oh, this, it's just going to be so easy. I thought as soon as I opened the door. Like I was just going to be barreled over by people trying to come in and see me.

It didn't work out that way, Jacques, like essentially, you know, I took all their advice. I did an actual door to door meet and greet and I got my office open, but there was actually another doctor that opened in the community that did the active release techniques so that, you know, any response that I would have had with that was like cut in half.

And it was right during the 2008 recession. And I don't know how much I can blame on that, but essentially like there were not enough new patients coming through the door. And so what I, I tried to do all these forms of marketing. I tried to do radio, newspaper inserts, Google ads, you know, a little bit of Facebook.

But the only thing that I could make work was like going and doing screenings. So actually standing at the front of a health club. And just straight up asking people that had just worked out like, Hey, would you like a quick back check? And I'm like, I'm a doctor. Like I'm driven by respect and I'm standing in the front of a health club like this. It was awful.

You know, things really hit a low point, financially. I've always, I've, I believe that a person should have an emergency fund. And so when I started that business, my emergency fund was like $20,000 so, you know, if I have $20,000 between my personal and my business, then I'm okay. If I go below that, that's zero in my book.

So I started my office at the start of 2008 in like in February of 2009 there had been a series of winter storms, like every Wednesday it was snowing. And so I just completely tore up my schedule and like killed my momentum. I ended up on a coaching call with my coach at the time. So this doctor Ben, you know, who was giving me advice and I had lesson like, I think I was down, I was for sure under $3,000 available, and I had an employee.

And so I was like, I was like, doctor Ben, I need help. How am I going to pay my employee using a credit card? Cause I'm like, I think I'm going to run out of money. And my coach was like, I'm not going to answer that question. He said, every problem you're having will be solved by getting more new patients. He's like, you got to go hand out your card to the grocery store.

You got to like join a church if you're not involved in one, he's like, you, you have to go to the stand at the health codes every night. And I'm like, yeah, I got that. But like, seriously, how am I going to pay Kelly? Like what the heck? And he refused to answer my question. I actually hung up the phone with them, like really ticked off because I was like, I mean, I got his, I got what he was trying to say, but I was like, the reality is like this lady like actually wants some money, and I wasn't sure what the logistics would be a paying an employee with a credit card. Anyways, I basically had to take his advice. I mean, keep doing those screenings.

Luckily spring came around. It didn't keep snowing. And I never completely ran out of money, but basically the next couple of years after that, it was still like just the cycle of having to go out and do these terrible screenings. I mean, the low point of screenings, like I was still just trying to get momentum, and I had heard that the sleep number store would let a chiropractor do a screening outside of a sleep number store.

So I went and did a screening standing in front of a sleep number store. So I had this little thing that I could check people's back with. And they would come by and I would be like, Hey, would you like a quick back check? And everybody that walked by like thought I worked for the sleep number store. So they would be like, Oh, I already bought one.

I love it. They're like, Oh, we already bought two. We have one in our camper even, and I mean from a self esteem perspective, I mean it was, I felt like the Liberty tax people, I mean, have you seen those people attached to them. I mean, that was where I was at. I was like, I'm a doctor and I feel like I'm wearing like a statue of Liberty costume and like swinging a sign for like Liberty tax. Essentially three years after I opened my practice, I had a, within that coaching program, there was some guidance on that you could grow through going out and doing a lunch and learn and I had considered this, but I was like, I was always kind of running kind of low on cash and I felt like if I was going to do, and I'd have to spend like $15 a person for like a boxed lunch. And I was like, man, like in a box lunch isn't even that great.

And so at the time, I really love Jimmy John's. And then I knew my sister just like loved Jimmy John's. You guys have Jimmy John's down in Baton Rouge?

Jacques Hopkins: Oh yeah. Like I literally have one across the street. I can just pop over there. I could be there. I could be there and back as fast as they make sandwiches in like two minutes from right now and come back to this conversation.

David Krohse: Yeah. So they're good. I mean, I get there on which, but so I had this lady coming in and she worked at the national pork board. So they, they represent all the pork producers around the country. And she was really appreciated my care. Her office was nearby. She had a good insurance. And so I decided I was going to ask her if we could do this lunch and learn and bring in sandwiches from Jimmy John's.

And so she was in there. She's laying on her back on my adjusting table. And I said, you know, Hey, I was thinking I could come in and do a lunch and learn and bring sandwiches from Jimmy John's. And she's like, yeah, I could make that happen. And I said, well, I was thinking that I could just send over a menu and people could RSVP with what sandwich they want, and then they'd be more committed to show up.

And this lady was like, well, I just ordered the ultimate porker for everybody. And I was like, well, what's the ultimate porker? And she said, well, it's like ham and bacon. And I said, well, what if somebody wants Turkey. And this lady went Turkey. You would never bring Turkey to the national pork board. I mean, she seriously got like almost irate at like this possibility that I would show up with Turkey.

Like I backed away from her and I was just like in shock because she actually like was I angry at me and I was like, Oh my God, you're right. Like, what was I thinking? I was like, you're still right. I'll, I'll bring the national porker for everybody or the ultimate pork or for everybody. Anyways, I calmed her down.

And she let me come in and we're like, we got patients from that first talk. So that was like late 2011 and like one of the patients, he still comes in like every two months for tuneups. So it was a success. I had people laughing. So for the next 14 months I was like figuring out this system of trying to book these lunch and learns.

And we got. You know, I think 2012 we did about 15 different lunch and learn and health fair events. But by the end of that year, I had really like troubleshot the system and 2013 we did like somewhere over 40 events, 40 lunch and learns and health fairs. And as a result, I saw over a hundred thousand dollars increase in my income.

It just skyrocketed me. I was able to get 100% out of debt with my business, so that was like the huge, huge victory. Then I got 100% debt free personally, I got my student loans, this $135,000 in student loans all the way paid off. Then like a year after that.

Jacques Hopkins: Wow.

David Krohse: And then I had, I know it was huge, and then I'd met my wife. Guess what she gave me for a wedding present?

Jacques Hopkins: Tell me.

David Krohse: Some student loans. She had $65,000 in student loans, but you know, again, and I give all the credit. It was, this program was working for me. It just plain worked and I enjoyed it. But we got married in April and in September I just. I just was able to throw a $65,000 at her student loans.

And so that was, that would have been late 2017 that I got 100% debt free.

Jacques Hopkins: That's amazing. That's awesome.

David Krohse: So, yeah, I mean, that's why, you know, hearing your story about getting out of debt, it's like, that's something that I'm really passionate about. Definitely followed Dave Ramsey system and because my pile of debt was so big though, I mean, essentially it was at $245,000 at one point.

But I say that my eighth baby step or eighth Dave Ramsey rule is like, keep your mistakes under three zeros. Like it was a long process, but I was like, you know, I'll buy some little stuff. I'll buy some stupid drinks at gas stations, but I'm not going to go out and buy a new car. But it was a huge process.

Jacques Hopkins: I like that. Yeah. You mentioned, you mentioned that you had your student loans and you had, you know, your business loan and that your parents co-sign for you, I'm like I wanted to say that it's all, it's all the things that Dave Ramsey doesn't recommend.

David Krohse: Oh man. When I had $15,000 going out the door, I mean like mental picture was like, imagine you have a bucket filled with water and the stream of water coming out the bottom is $15,000 a month and somehow you have to get like $15,000 worth of water poured into that top of that bucket.

Like, I mean, there was so much stress and I mean, just to talk about like why are online courses such a good idea? I mean. You know, I'm doing basically what you recommend. I have Clickfunnels and I have Activecampaign for like 130 a month. I mean, somebody with no cash, you could give plasma four times a month.

I started online course business. I spent $245,000 and was burning through $15,000 a month to start my like physical business. It's like if you're out there and you're thinking about starting an online course business and you're like, Oh, you know, I can't ask my wife for the 130 a month. It's like. Yeah, I'll find a way.

You know, you deliver pizzas one night a month and you can get your business started, you know exactly as you recommend. So

Jacques Hopkins: yeah, I love it. So, I mean, that was, that was a wild ride of a story, man. I appreciate you sharing that in the, the question was how'd you get into the world of online courses? So I'm guessing that's about where you left off with this story.

David Krohse: That's right where I'm at, yeah, so.

Jacques Hopkins: So let's pick it back up here.

David Krohse: Yep. So late 2017 I had binge-listened to how I built this podcast. Have you listened to that one at all?

Jacques Hopkins: I've heard of it. I've heard of it, probably from you but yeah.

David Krohse: It's so good. So I mean, it's these, these like success stories, you know, Spanx, this lady that started Spanx. It's like, you know, just the things she did to get her business going. We're totally guerrilla marketing tactics and very inspiring. So highly recommend that, but I like listen to every episode and I'm like, what am I going to listen to next? And this is where I wish I could go back and know what I searched.

But I mean, like I was searching for, you know, how I build this? Like what is the other one that's like that? And whatever I typed in, I mean, business success stories or something like I found your podcast. So I mean, I totally feel like, I don't know how you were in the system, but that's where you showed up.

And so I started listening to your podcast and I was just cracking up at you and Nate. I mean, you and Nate to see, I mean, you're different personalities, obviously. You're like very social, but like organized guy. And then Nate is just like a super motivated hippie. And I remember at one of the early episodes like, ah, I dunno, it's in the first few, but you're like, Nate, have you been working hard on your online course?

And Nate's like. Oh no, you know, like for awhile there I was working on it like three hours a day and I just don't really like technology very much. So I needed a little break and I remember just laughing out loud, just like, this is so funny. I mean, both of you guys are like work smarter, not harder. And so, I mean, I just really appreciated that after listening to quite a few, I'm like, I got to play these for my wife.

And so my wife and I, we do a walk like every Friday and I bring on this all along this little Bluetooth headphone thing. And so I'm like, you got to listen to these guys. They're hilarious. And so we listened to it and she's cracking up the right time. She's enjoying it too, and we get done. And like two nights later I'm like, you know, Val, you know, do you want to do something together tomorrow night or plan something?

And she's like, well, actually, she's like, I'm like watching this webinar. And I'm like, what is it? She's like, it's the microgreens. And I was like, are you serious? And she's like, yeah. She said, I already got his little booklet and it sounds awesome. And she's like, I just want to watch the webinar. And I was like, at the end of the webinar, you're going to want to buy because I'm like, I know all the tricks they do to like make you buy. Like I'm like, they're going to make you feel like if you don't buy right then that you're going to miss out. And I'm like, and it is somewhat true, but I'm like, I'm like, you really think that you might want to start a microgreens business?

And she's like, yeah, I do. And I'm like, well, you know, the price is probably going to be either 300 or 500 right now. I'm not sure where he's at. If you really feel like you're going to do this, you know, you do have my thumbs up to go ahead and purchase. And so she wanted to watch it on her own, but I'm sure enough, I got the text and she's like, I joined, I joined and she said she was so funny cause she's like, yeah.

If I signed up right then, then I got the branding package. I was like, I told ya. I'm like, I know about that. And then at the time, the other thing Nate was doing that was really cool and that's really excited her. But he had a deal where if Val sold like $5,000 of microgreens or something in the first year that she would get all her money back.

And so that really was motivated to her, to her too. She was like, she was like, well, if I saw the money, she's like, I can get it for free. And so, or sell that much microgreens. So anyways, my wife, I'm not, I don't want to get too far off into that story, but my wife joined the course. So right now it's late 2019.

And so at the start of this year, she would have bought that early 2018. But this year she joined the farmer's market and share who she calls her business sprout for joy microgreens and has super cute logo. And she was at the farmer's market every Tuesday night, sold a bunch of micro greens. She really like made great friendships there.

And now she's gotten going with like a subscription program. So she's, you know, what Nate has to offer, it works. I mean, she's loved the experience. And so, yeah, his offer is actually legit.

Jacques Hopkins: Just to, just to catch people out that maybe are newer to the podcast. Nate Dodson was, was basically on like the first 20 episodes of the podcast, and he was essentially a cohost.

And, you know, it kind of started where I was kinda coaching him through different topics as he was growing his online course, which is about microgreens. And yeah, I completely agree that, we're, me and Nate are very different from each other and I appreciate the positive feedback from you on those early episodes.

And it's funny to hear that story about him saying that he just, you know, didn't really feel like working on it, that he's just like that. I remember you telling me that your wife bought his course and how clearly his webinar works very well.

David Krohse: Oh yeah.

Jacques Hopkins: So that's really cool. And I'm looking back in my, in my history here, and it looks like you kind of first started interacting with me and, in saying you were listening to podcast like April, May, 2018, so about a year and a half ago or so.

David Krohse: Yeah. So let's see here. So, yeah, I mean, when I was first listening to your podcasts, I had no ambitions to make an online course. I mean, I just like, I just like the story.

I started looking around at my life though. I mean, you inspired me and I'm like, I am not, my chiropractic office is a success in the sense that I was making well over six figures and at the point that I was debt free, my wife and I got to travel. We have like no stress. I've been able to retain staff really well, but my, it's not like I have $1 million a year clinic.

It's not like I have a franchise, so I'm not a guru. But you know, the one thing I would say is like, I tried all these other forms of marketing. I was not able to make them work, but that lunch and learn program, you know, going out, doing lunch and learns, doing the health fairs, like I developed a system with that where I had one employee reach out, you know, and she would be able to get us booked.

And then when we gave our talks, people would actually be like, yeah, I want to come in and see this guy and give him a chance to find out what's going on, what's causing my back pain, neck pain, headaches, whatever. And so I, once I realized that, I was like, I want to do that. And so. I went through your, at the time you were running a product launch formula style funnel for your course.

And I went through that and I watched the videos every day. And I mean, I was just excited to actually join your course. I remember I was off.

Jacques Hopkins: My course on courses, right?

David Krohse: The course on the online courses, on creating online course. And, I don't know if during it you were really saying how much the course is going to be, but I mean, I'm sure. well, so anyways, I was out on a long, I was out on this long bike ride. I'm super into biking, and I remember it was Saturday morning and I finally got the email where it's like, you're, you're invited to enroll in the course. And I stopped there on a gravel road. And the price, I mean, for people who are listening, the price was $700. I mean, it was like 697.

Jacques Hopkins: 697, yup.

David Krohse: And, you know, but I had made the decision that I was going to do that. And you know, that same course, that 697 course is now free, right Jacques?

Jacques Hopkins: Essentially. Yeah. There, there was some other components that I included back then and it was a 697 then it was 997 if you remember, I included like a couple of one-on-one coaching calls. Right?

We had some coaching calls, there was a group, there was group calls and there was some other bonuses as well that I don't necessarily include in the, the free version. But the course itself is the same. And actually I would say even better, cause I've rerecorded it and added stuff to it.

David Krohse: Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, so I paid essentially $700 and I mean, for people who are listening and you're trying to figure out where to price your course.

I mean, that was a level where I had talked to my wife about it. I mean, you think she bought the course. I bought the course, you know, the $500 price point, the $700 you know, that gets to a level where you do have a conversation with your wife or your husband and you know, in my situation, I told her, yeah, I think I'm really gonna do this.

And she's like, how much is it going to be 700 bucks? And she's, you know, she asked me that question like, are you going to actually make the course? And it's like, yeah, I am. And you know, when you're pricing your course, if you really want people to have results, like putting your price at a point where people have to have that conversation with their spouse, I mean, you could say that that's a huge motivator because you know, if it was down at 100 bucks there certainly, the. When Jacques mentioned to me that he was going to make the course free. I was like, yeah, but you know, I was like, the fact that I paid you money did provide motivation. I actually, I kind of told him, I was like, I don't know man. Cause for some people if they can get it for free, I don't know if they'll actually do it.

Jacques Hopkins: That was my biggest sticking point. I remember running it by you to see what you thought cause you had actually been there. You paid for the course. It's just I, I go back and forth. There is a really small barrier to entry now, so basically you have to buy expert secrets, which is like 7.99 to get in there.

But so far so good on that. People are going through it. A lot of people appreciate that it's free. I mean, you should see, I got this message from a guy the other day just like. He was just so thankful that it was free. And he, I'll try to pull it up and read it here in a few minutes, but he got results from it.

So I wanted to, I knew I could always go back to charging for it, but so far so good.

David Krohse: Yeah. That's awesome. So, yeah, anybody listening, I mean, that's a $700 value. That's legitimate. I have no regrets on purchasing that. So anyways, yeah. I mean, ultimately I just trusted Jacques' plan. I mean, I knew that what he and Nate had done had worked on us, and so it's like, let's just copy what he's doing.

And your, your course gave me everything that I needed to know. So I made a ton of progress in the first like six weeks and I felt like I was probably two weeks from being able to launch my course. My wife and I went on a vacation to Oregon, so we went out to Bend, Oregon. And I was just super excited and I had this idea that I was gonna like do like a promotion where I explained the value of this lunch and learn and health fair marketing as I climbed up a mountain with like and just stopped and show people views.

And so the first morning out there, that's two time zones to the West. And so I woke up super early, went out, and I'm like walking up this, it's called Pilot Butte, and I'm talking about the course and just all the advantages. Two days later we were over in Medford, Oregon, and it was in the evening and I started getting text messages.

So my chiropractic office is right next to this little creek. I mean, it's like a little trickle, but we had had seven inches come down in two hours or an hour and a half, and the creek had just spiked. And I basically found out that my entire office had one to three inches of water in it. And so, I mean, I thought about flying back, like making it back that next day, but ultimately I was like, there's not anything I can really do.

I was freaked out because I thought I had lost, I potentially had lost a bunch of my video footage. And so I called my tech guys, my best friend Matt from Growing Up, but I was like, dude, you gotta go in and see if you can pull the hard drives. And he went in there and there was actually a live outlet that was like zapping him, like giving him this like he was like, I could feel it like this electricity. But he yanked the hard drives and luckily I didn't lose my video footage, but for anybody out there, you know, like back up, back up, back up, back up. You never know when that's going to happen, but that was a crisis. I mean, I actually went and operated out of another chiropractor's office for like five weeks.

The course just got on the back burner when we were moving in. And so that happened on like, let's see here, like July 1st. And so, probably, I think in mid-September I was just like, I gotta complete this. And you know, I've been putting things off for a long time, but I will say again, Jacques, I mean, somewhere on the podcast you had talked about this concept of penalty goals and the couple of things that were hanging me up.

I mean, one was just getting the motivation. The other was like, I was like, I don't know if my talks, even though the talks had worked for me, I was like, I feel like another chiropractor who would get jumped into my course would have to memorize them. And so I was like, I just don't know if they're good enough.

But with that penalty goal concept, I messaged my buddy Danny, and I was just like, dude, I'm going to record these three, three actual talks and if I don't get them done by Monday, I have to give you 100 bucks. And I came in and record to all three on Saturday and like then I went to actually check the files and they looked so terrible and I had issues I was trying to record with the Sony RX 100 and it stops at like 27 minutes or something.

And so they were just messed up. And without that penalty goal, I wouldn't have gotten it done. But I came back in on Sunday morning with a different strategy and just plowed through and got it done. So let's see here. November, I opened the course. I think I asked you what you recommended. And I started with a video sales letter.

So largely that was like a lot of, you know, just looking at what Nate Dodson had done on his microgreens video and then took taking some elements from your series of videos for, for piano in 21 days. But I created a video sales letter that was like 47 minutes and put it out there. And I asked people to, to, you know, do calls with me like you recommended.

And I had like a few doctors within the first couple of weeks jump on calls with me. And I will say the first sign of success was these guys. You know, like when I talked to you, Jack, I mean, I sound a little bit like a fan boy. It's like, you know, I can ref if you said, what are your favorite parts of the podcast?

You know, I can tell you the five or 10 things that I'm like, that part was so funny that these doctors around the country, they'd get on a call with me and they were like, when you told that pork, pork board story, I was laughing out loud. And then there they be like, Oh man. Like I knew exactly what you're talking about when.

Just that feeling when you're doing a screening. And so, you know, without your emphasis on telling stories. I mean, I wouldn't have gotten that feedback, but I was like, all right, my stuff is resonating with these guys. I would say about two weeks after I opened my course, I was out for a bike ride again.

It was probably like a Tuesday evening and I got a little, I had set up a special notification where if I got a sale it was going to go to, I have one email that does notification, so it's going to ding in my pocket. And so I got that ding and just stopped on this gravel road and I was doing fist pumps and I had to text my mom, text my wife, texts my entire family and friends.

I was like, this is so amazing. I mean, I just felt like I was unstoppable. I rode like, you know, just 190 heart rate for the rest of that ride and stop for a beer. And it was just amazing. So definitely that first feeling of getting that first sale is unbelievable. Next few months. So that was November.

Over the next few months, like I really had probably about six sales. I had to do a couple of refunds. The first guy that bought from me, he asked for a refund, but, that happens and that's frustrating. There were a couple of funny things that happened. The most ironic thing, so I'm hearing on the West side of Des Moines, Iowa, which is a town, Des Moines has like 700,000 people.

And the ironic thing is I was getting this gradually bigger lists. Like I still only have like 300 doctors on my mailing list, but my list was growing and I had a Facebook group that people were joining, but like I was getting the most of other chiropractors right here in Des Moines, and like, I'm still a chiropractor.

That's still my main gig. And I mean, I try to have a wealth mentality. Like I'm like, Oh, you know, there's plenty of patients in Des Moines. But the reality is like the lunch and learn program, like there's not that many like mid size businesses and so all these chiropractors, like one mile away, they tried to buy my course and I like had to send them a message and I'm like, I'm sorry, but you know, I'm just, I don't feel comfortable giving you this because we're just too close.

Ultimately after having that experience, I was like, you know, I got to make this, this course actual area exclusive for anybody that joins my course. And so I guess that's another tip for anybody out there that's making a course. You know, when somebody joins my course, they go on a special Google map and you could go to my site and I could actually send you, this is everywhere that I have a, a member.

And so that does create a type of scarcity because Lincoln, Nebraska, let's say it's still available, but whoever joins in Lincoln, Nebraska, they're going to have that entire town for my program, so. I would say the other coolest thing in that first few months was I had a guy talking to me from Australia and I went to bed one night and I woke up in the morning and this guy, I got a message and this guy from Sydney, Australia joined my course.

And so, I mean, that was definitely like just this huge, like, Oh my gosh, like I could legitimately say I'm an international course instructor, coach and course instructor. I'm like, that is fricking amazing. And you know, it just feels like sky's the limit. You look at the globe, there's a lot of cities out there and a lot of doctors.

So anyways, just jumping ahead. In July, I had decided that I needed to set up an actual product launch formula style launch. So I probably made my videos way too long for that, and they were like up at 20 minutes. But. I set up that PLF and ran everybody through it and essentially had like one person by early in like the six-day buying period.

And then on the last day, I had 10 sales come through at a 297 price point. So my first launch, I think the total was right around $3,100 so I'm up to about $5,000 in total sales. And I mean, that's where I'm at today. So. Yeah, that's the story. And like I say, I mean, just looking back on it, you know, if my family hadn't had the tragedy, I wouldn't be here as a chiropractor.

If I hadn't had the struggle and those failures early in my chiropractice. If I just found instant success, I wouldn't be here as a course creator. So, I mean, I just tell anybody out there that if you're in the middle of the struggle, like, you know, find a way out and then lead people on your path and it might, might create a better future.

Jacques Hopkins: Man, David, I can't thank you enough for coming in and sharing. So thoroughly your story. I mean, a lot of that I didn't even know about you. And, it paints a really good picture of, you know, where you've come from and then where you are now having sold $5,000 worth of courses. What's your plan going forward?

Like, are you satisfied with where your course is and are you satisfied with continuing as a chiropractor or is the goal to, to quit that and just focus on the course? What are you thinking?

David Krohse: I've got it pretty mapped out. I mean, the first thing I am due to do a second launch at the end of that first one. I said that it wasn't going to be available until October. And you know, the biggest thing is I need a rock star testimonial. I've had people do it and I've had them get events booked, but I need somebody to go out there and you know, I basically say the lunch and learn and health fair marketing and in my office is brought in around $800,000.

And so I need somebody else to go out there and be like, I joined this program and then the first year I brought in like $40,000 and at that point like I can really just really start to push things forward. So I need to do a launch within a couple of weeks, and I do have a couple of testimonials that are supposed to be coming in within a week that I'll be able to add to that and just, you know, build that social proof.

My big goal for this winter is to take what I have and make it for all the other professions. So acupuncturist, a yoga studio owner, a therapist, you know, all of these people could be growing this way. And so I want to just repurpose my content that way. And I think that that could, so right now, I don't have anything evergreen, but at the point that I have the course for all these different professions, then my goal, and again, that's the main goal for the winter, is that I would make it evergreen.

And, you know, if a realtor wants to join my program by this time next April or next March, they can just sign up and they'll watch the product launch formula kind of thing over a few days and be able to join the program and start promoting their real estate office through lunch and learns and health fairs.

So that's the big goal. And then I have other ideas. I have a bunch of ideas for other courses too, and just value adds things that I could add more value to chiropractor specifically. But then, you know, maybe for other professions too.

Jacques Hopkins: But you're still working a full time job right. Right now, right?

David Krohse: Correct. Yeah, and my office is, you know, it's, it's one of those things right now it's really busy and I'm like, Aw man, I really want to focus on the core stuff, but I am stuck doing paperwork more than I'd like.

Jacques Hopkins: Well, what's that? That's kind of my question is like, what's your, what's your dream job like? What's ideally, you know, two, three, five years down the road? Ideally, what does a day in the life of David Krohse look like?

David Krohse: I dunno. I mean, chiropractic is a fun job. I mean, you should see the feedback I get. I mean, people that have had problems for years are like, you know, my back pain's gone. I mean, lately we have a bunch of people that haven't digestive issues or they're like, I had indigestion for like six years and I'm like, I don't have that at all anymore.

So, I mean, chiropractic is fun. For me more than anything, it is just freedom. It's like the freedom to choose. I don't know exactly what I would do. I'm definitely not, I'm not a four hour work week guy. Like, I mean if you gave me a four week break during my college years, I would go get a part time job.

Like I'm really not good at doing nothing, but I'll tell you like that period. I mean that story I told you about being down under, you know, down under $3,000 available. that left me with like lasting scars. Like I, there's parts of my psyche that are like, I've got a person that made it through the great depression here in America because, you know, I never want to be poor again and I want to set up my life in a way that I like never have to stress about money.

And so to me, like money is freedom right now. My wife and I, like this year we did like a, we'll end up doing like four, six day vacations throughout the year, but certainly. Inability to do the three week and the four week vacations or longer, and just not have that stress. That'd be the big thing.

Jacques Hopkins: So let's, let's next talk a little about this podcast. One thing I thought was really funny about what you were saying is you were searching for a similar podcast, which you're already listening to. And at the time the this podcast was called the online course guy podcast. Now it's just called the online course show, but either way, the online course was in the title and you said you had no intention of creating an online course, but yet you dug into the podcast.

You love the podcast, which I think is just hilarious, and obviously it worked out that you now have an online course. This podcast I'm thinking is going to work better with a cohost, and that's kind of why I'm bringing you in here. I think you make a good cohost for this show. What do you think about that opportunity?

David Krohse: Oh, I'm thrilled. You know, I, I'd love to see if I can provide value and just, I'm listening to your podcast every week, so yeah, I'd be thrilled to be able to be in on the conversation.

Jacques Hopkins: I think, you know, you, you spoke very highly of those early episodes with Nate, and I get a little lonely on this side, and I think that the podcast that I've listened to, I really liked the ones that have at least two people better.

And there's banter, there's communication, there's, Hey, how was your week? Those types of things. And I think that's been missing since Nate was a regular. So that's one of the reasons that I wanted to maybe bring some money on like yourself, and you obviously are very passionate about courses. You have a course, you're working on your course, you'll be able to provide updates in your course.

So I think it's going to be a really good fit going forward.

David Krohse: Yeah, for sure. I mean, and plus like, it helps. Like, you know, I see that you made the two comma club award and so you got, if you say that yourself, it sounds like you're bragging, but I mean, I don't know when you were going to bring that up, but congratulations on that.

That's amazing.

Jacques Hopkins: I don't know what to do with it. It's sitting right behind me here on this table. Yeah, it's at the bottom of these boxes. It's just laying down flat. Yeah. So the two comma club, is it is a clickfunnels thing. When you make a seven figures with clickfunnel with one funnel in clickfunnels, they'll send you this award and, and whatnot. Supposedly, if I go to their conference in February that I'll get a picture with Russell Brunson. So that'd be [inaudible].

David Krohse: Oh my gosh. Well that's, that's amazing. And like you said a, I mean, cause I saw your post in the clickfunnels group and you know, the fact that you did that with something that isn't teaching other people how to make money, it's in just providing value, helping people reach their dreams.

Congratulations.

Jacques Hopkins: I appreciate it. Yeah, that is another reason. It's. He comes across as awkward. If I just say, Hey guys, what's going on? Oh, by the way, I won the two comma club award, but you bring it up. It's a little less awkward, I think.

David Krohse: Yeah. That was cool.

Jacques Hopkins: So I'm excited about it, man. This is a, this episode, just wanted to let the audience get to know you a little bit more so they know who the, you know the other guy talking here and there is going to be on future episodes. Want to wrap up with a just kind of a little fun thing, just some random questions for you. Kind of a get to know David little segment here.

So are you ready?

David Krohse: I'm ready.

Jacques Hopkins: Excellent. Let's start with an easy one. David what is your favorite thing to do in the world?

David Krohse: I mean, that would be biking, I guess. That's my passion. And I love my dog. My dog is like 28 pounds and she's actually, she's a little dog, but she's able to run alongside the bike at like 10 miles an hour.

And so some of my rides are with my dog. Sometimes my wife will bike with me and then I'm on our actual racing team. And so, you know. If anybody out there is like, if you're a guy and you're having trouble finding a good group of friends that are just like, they party some, but they're also like motivated, like anybody that bikes, like I'm instant friends with and like, you know, the same way that I could tell like you and I have similarities in the way that we look at the world driven, but also like, you know, want to appreciate life and experience things.

Everybody that I meet biking like is that type of a person. So I just love it for all the actual, just going by myself listening to a podcast. That's where I listened to your podcast the most. But other times I'm hanging out with people, hanging out with my dog, hanging out with my wife. So.

Jacques Hopkins: I think 90% of the pictures I see on Facebook from your are have a bike involved in there. So I figured that was going to be the answer. I don't know if I told you this, but I recently got an e-bike and I got, it's like a. It's like a cargo e-bikes, so it's got two kids seats on the back, so I can put both my kids on there. So we're biking everywhere and don't call me lazy. I don't always use the battery, but it's really nice to have when you need it. Especially what, I've got the, you know, two kids back there, so I've been taking school on there. We've been going to LSU games on there.

David Krohse: Which did you get?

Jacques Hopkins: It's a the rad. It's actually, yeah, a rad power bike is the brand. It's really funny because Nate actually has the exact same bike and we came to it completely differently.

I had no idea, but he actually has a video on YouTube. He calls it the solid cycle or something like that. It's how he brings his display or something to the farmer's market with all of his microgreens. Same exact bike that I have. He has microgreens on the back. I have kids on the back of mine.

David Krohse: That's awesome.

Jacques Hopkins: Next question. What's your go to karaoke song?

David Krohse: Oh man. I would say going the distance by cake.

Jacques Hopkins: Have you ever been told that you look like someone famous? And if so, who is it?

David Krohse: Yeah. So yeah, I was standing at our local restaurant called zombie burger and this like 70 year old lady was like, have you ever been told? At the time I was only like 32 years old and I had a little bit more hair. I mean, for people that haven't seen a picture of me yet, I mean, I'm gone pretty bald here, but, this lady is like, have you ever been told that you look like Ron Howard? And I was just like.

Jacques Hopkins: I see it. I see it.

David Krohse: Do you? Are you being serious?

Jacques Hopkins: I'm dead serious.

David Krohse: I was like, happy days, Ron Howard, or like old bald, Ron Howard. It's like, so Ron Howard.

Jacques Hopkins: Nice. I'll throw this antidote in there since this is a, most people hear me in the audio platform. I've been told on multiple occasions that I sound, not look, but sound exactly like one of the characters, you know, the show, parks and rec, parks and recreation?
So the main character, Leslie Knope, the blonde, the guy that she married, right? The actor's name is Adam Scott. If you ever go, next time anybody's listening, you're watching parks and rec, just close your eyes and it'll sound like me. Promise you. It's true.

David Krohse: What about looks? Have you been told you look like somebody?

Jacques Hopkins: For me, when I wear glasses, I've gotten like Superman, Clark Kent on many occasions. When I was younger, I got, John Mayer several times.

David Krohse: Oh, nice.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, right. David, what is your most used emoji?

David Krohse: Probably, probably the one with the, I really dig and the tongue sticking out. Do you know that one? The smiley face.

Jacques Hopkins: All right. If you had your own late night talk show, who do you invite as your first guest?

David Krohse: Oh man. I don't know. Tiffany Amber Thiessen because she was like my crush growing up I guess. Kelly, Kelly from Saved by the Bell.

Jacques Hopkins: What is she doing these days?

David Krohse: I don't know. My wife, I talked about her with my wife the other day and my wife said that she read about her in People. I can't remember. I don't know.

Jacques Hopkins: All right, man. Last one. If you had to eat one meal every day for the rest of your life, what would that meal be?

David Krohse: We'll just, we'll stick with Jimmy John's theme and say, Jimmy John's unwhich

Jacques Hopkins: How about that man. I do. I'll be honest with you. I'll get the gargantuan unwhich man, I love it. Which one would you go for?

David Krohse: Well, they keep changing their names. It's one with, like, lately I get the ham and roast beef one.

Jacques Hopkins: Nice. David. Been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for joining me. Look forward to you joining me on future episodes as well.

David Krohse: All right. Thank you so much, Jacques, for everything.

Jacques Hopkins: Okay. That's going to put this episode in the books for all the notes and links from today's episode. You can find the show notes by going to theonlinecourseguy.com/106. And next I want to tell you about the online course accelerator. That's something that David and I talked about. He was one of the first people to ever sign up for the online course accelerator back when it was $697 I then started selling it at $997 lots of lots of people bought it at both of those prices, but guess what?

It's now free.

It's basically free. So if you go to theonlinecourseguy.com click on the online course accelerator at the top. All that I ask you to do is buy a copy of expert secrets. One of my favorite favorite resources on online courses. It's a book by Russell Brunson who is the creator of ClickFunnels.

It's a fantastic resource. You can kind of think of it like the textbook for the online course accelerator. So you go there. All the instructions are on the website, but basically you buy expert secrets. It cost 7.99 if you're in the United States, it's a few dollars more if you're international. Once you do that through my link, you will get free access to the online course accelerator, so hopefully it's a total win-win.

The reason I do that is while it's for a few reasons. You know, this is my way of somewhat paying it forward. There are plenty of people that helped me on my journey and continue to help me today, and I want to be able to help you like that as well. Courses are not easy, and typical trainings on how to succeed with online courses are typically very expensive and put your business in the red.

Right from the start, and I want you to start with as much momentum as possible. Secondly, and this is kind of similar to the first reason, creating and growing an online course comes with costs. You need software to host your course. You may need some recording equipment. There's various tools and resources that you may need for your particular course, and rather than online course training being just another one of those costs. How about if I just completely eliminate that for you?

I know that I would have appreciated that when I was a beginner too. And lastly, last reason that I'm doing this, I'm not just completely selfless here. I am a business person after all. And my hope is that by giving you this course for free, you will thank me by using my affiliate links inside the course when you decide to sign up for any software tools that I recommend.

So for example, as you go through this process and you decide it's time to sign up for clickfunnels or bonjora or deadline funnel, or any of the other great tools that make our lives easier as course creators, then I hope you'll decide to sign up for them through my link. So I get a small kickback from those companies.

So that's my reason for changing from $1,000 course to a free course to help you along your online course journey. Once again, if you are ready to sign up for that head to theonlinecourseguy.com and go to the top and find the link for the online course accelerator.

So thanks again for listening to another episode of The Online Course Show. If this is your first time, make sure you jump back and listened to episode 89 for the online courses 101 episode, and if you haven't done so already, please consider leaving a review for this show on your favorite podcast platform.

Thanks again. We'll talk to you next week.

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