Look at the trends… Look at the bigger picture. That’s the wiser approach.
It was great to get David’s perspective on what worked (and didn’t) for him in the last six months. I hope you enjoy listening in on our conversation!
In This Episode, We Talked About:
- (2:07) Recent LSU highlights and the genesis of my new Friday Facebook Live chats
- (5:53) Setting up a webinar for the first time
- (12:44) David Krohse’s plans for reaching out to new potential students
- (17:58) Revisiting my first interview with David Walliman from way back when
- (20:19) The downside to being extremely consistent with a given process – and what that meant for David moving forward
- (22:58) How he improved his content planning to take off some pressure
- (25:29) Burnout, breaks, and figuring out what is actually necessary to sustain business (hint: this will be different for different businesses)
- (31:02) Gaining perspective on success and fluctuating sales
- (34:12) Would David still encourage people to create their own online course?
- (35:22) How has his branding evolved?
- (37:39) Teachable, new tools, and growing David’s team
- (40:49) His response to a question someone recently asked me about transitioning into online courses
- (44:20) Navigating licensing issues in the music niche
- (46:10) David’s goals for 2020
- (47:19) Wrapping up our interview
- (47:47) David Krohse and I discuss the importance of auditing business processes
- (50:16) My story of making the switch from a “normal” job to online course creation
- (53:37) Thoughts on platform choices and content planning
- (54:36) Getting ready for the ups and downs of owning your own business
That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show (and don’t forget to check out the Facebook group link below if you haven’t already).
Jacques Hopkins: Episode 115 is brought to you by Deadline Funnel. A tool I've been using for years and absolutely love, but so have many people that have been on this podcast, including Bailey Richard. Bailey says, the problem with live periodic launching is that it's a lot of work. It's stressful, and it's also risky.
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Regular people are taking their knowledge in content, packaging it up in an online course, and they're making a living doing it. But not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way, and I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses.
Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins and this is The Online Course Show.
And off we go. Welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. This is The Online Course Show. I am your host Jacques Hopkins, and here with me as our cohost David Krohse.
David Krohse: What's up?
Jacques Hopkins: And we are excited to dive into all things online courses with you today. David, welcome to episode 115.
David Krohse: Thank you. How's it going?
Jacques Hopkins: It's going well, man, I, you know, I don't know if you know this about me. I think I mentioned every now and then, but I am a huge college football fan, like huge, like not a big NFL fan. I'll do a little baseball here and there, but if there's one sport I'm big into, it's college football. My team is LSU that's, I was born and raised in Louisiana. I went to LSU for my undergraduate degree, still live in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, which is where LSU is.
And man, they just finished off an incredible season. My wife and I just got back from New Orleans where we were, were there to watch them win the national championship last night against Clemson. So I'm doing really well.
David Krohse: Oh, awesome.
Jacques Hopkins: And you know nothing about college football, you probably don't have.
David Krohse: I, yeah, I remember you saying you like college baseball, but I didn't know football. For me personally, like if you tell me a story of like a coach coming in and taking a team that sucks and like they turn it around in a season or two, like I will follow that story. I'll read the articles. But I don't actually watch.
Jacques Hopkins: You should look into this LSU team because there, there is some of that, and we're not going to spend a lot of time on college football on an online course podcast, but their coach, Ed Orgeron, is, is cagin' through and through from South Louisiana, has just had a ton of struggles, failed in a lot of places and started to fail at LSU as well.
And then everything just came together this year and they're talking about this being one of the greatest college football teams that's ever played.
David Krohse: Wow.
Jacques Hopkins: And Ed Orgeron was on the verge of being fired two years ago.
David Krohse: Oh my God.
Jacques Hopkins: So it's definitely.
David Krohse: Shoot me the article. I'd read the article. I would.
Jacques Hopkins: Trust me, there's a lot of articles, man. You're, you're just, it's just not your, it's not your world. Anyway, let's talk more online course related things. One thing that I wanted to mention everybody in the podcast, and I think you're a little familiar with this, is I started doing like a little morning show on Friday mornings.
David Krohse: Yeah.
Jacques Hopkins: And speaking of college football, one of the local media guys here in town in Baton Rouge, who I just really respect because he, he is such a grinder. He's got a radio show from 3 to 6:00 PM every weekday here. It's a sports, you know, local sports talk show, but he's always doing, he's does other podcasts. He does YouTube videos. And one thing he does is every single morning, I think he's done it from a 700 mornings in a row, is he does, his name is Matt Moscona.
So he calls it Morning Scone, which I think is a fun name for it. Cause scone is in his last name, like a, like the British kind of biscuit breakfast thing. And he'll just turn on Facebook live and he'll just say, good morning everybody. You know, what do y'all want to talk about today? And he'll answer questions, whether it's about you know, LSU football or you know how he structures his day or whatever, and it's just super casual. Usually his son is running around with him. I was like, man, that could be fun for me to do with online courses in my audience, and I don't think I want to commit to every day, but that's just kind of the Genesis of, of how I got the idea.
I'm thinking 2020 let me try this. Let me try it on Friday mornings. I did the first one went great. There's a lot of fun. People came with just small questions, you know, people came with specific questions about their online courses, and if you haven't attended one of these Friday mornings, 9:00 AM central time. So just do the math for whatever time zone you're in. And you have, here's the key. You have to be in the Facebook group because that's where I'm going live. So if you're not a part of the online course community, which is free, it's on Facebook. And you know, if you're not on Facebook, well then a Facebook live is not going to work for you either.
Maybe one day I'll branch out to other platforms, but check that out, you know, check it out Friday mornings and a and join me for, I'll be drinking my ice coffee and answering whatever questions people out there have. I think you attended one briefly, didn't you, David?
David Krohse: I did jump in there for a few minutes. I had a gap opened up in my schedule, so yeah, jumped in there and said, hi, watched a bit. It looks really great, good amount of engagement and people enjoying it. For sure.
Jacques Hopkins: Excellent. So before we get into the interview for today, I want to hit a topic that. Everybody's going to be somewhat familiar with some more than others. And that's, that's webinars. Let's talk a little bit about webinars and let me start by asking you about the status of yours. Cause we've talked on this podcast before, how you want to make an evergreen webinar. As part of the sales funnel for your online course? What's your status?
David Krohse: Exactly. Well, I had that VSL that a video sales letter that worked okay. So I kind of have an outline and an idea, but yes, my plan is this coming weekend to record this evergreen webinar, and so the last couple of weeks I've been watching yours, I appreciated you sharing the link for that piano in 21 days webinar. I watched that really great and really inspiring. I liked it.
So yeah, just trying to make the best webinar I can this week. I do have an idea for after I have this webinar up and running that I'd like to run by you at some point, so I don't know if now is the best time or if you want to share more thoughts on the webinars.
Jacques Hopkins: Let's, let's come back to that, but let's make sure we hit it. So you are going to record your evergreen webinar this weekend, right? There's two. There's two ways you can do evergreen in terms of the actual video product. You can use a recording from a live webinar. Or you can just record it on your own time and edit it and, and, and produce a video that way. It sounds like you're going the prerecorded route. Am I hearing that correct?
David Krohse: Correct, yes.
Jacques Hopkins: What's your reason as somebody kind of beginner here, you've never really done a webinar. What's your reasoning there?
David Krohse: Honestly, my, my audience is only about 300 people, 310 on my list. So I feel like I would struggle to get a full room and a webinar. That's the biggest issue.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. But even, let's, let's say 10 people showed up. Right? Which is probably about what you could expect with a 3-person, 300-person list. So is that, is that a problem?
David Krohse: I don't know. You tell me. Should I be trying to do it live?
Jacques Hopkins: Well though, so let's, let's kind of talk about the pros and cons. If you, if you do it live and one of your goals and doing it live is so that you have a recording to use evergreen, well then you need to kind of do evergreen things on your live webinar, right?
You don't, you probably don't want to say, Hey, good morning guys. You know, today is January the 13th. Right now it's 9:03 AM well, that's, that's making it not evergreen. Right?
David Krohse: Okay.
Jacques Hopkins: But if you talk about current events and things like that, I would, I would probably suggest for you to go ahead and do a prerecorded webinar. You know, the, one of the things I want to talk about. Is is how you kind of frame an evergreen webinar because you don't want to say, Hey, join me for this live training's going to be live when we answer your questions live, and then people show up and it's, it's a recording. That's disingenuous. I would say.
So everybody's doing evergreen webinars or a lot of people are, you know, a lot of the big names in. Everybody comes kind of frames it differently. To me, I don't have a problem with doing evergreen webinars as long as we're not promoting them as live. Right? And one of the kind of gray areas I think is when you have a chat roll going, and so my evergreen webinar that's been running for piano in 21 days for probably a year and a half.
And is it kicks butt, man, it it, it works really, really well. Well, it's a recording from a live webinar. I did, and I finished that live webinar. I was like. That's the one that went really well. I did great. Everybody loved it, made a lot of sales. That's the one. So I started using that as my evergreen webinar, and I was able to export the chat from that webinar and import it into my evergreen webinar.
So these people that commented on my webinar live a year and a half ago. That happens every time you go through my evergreen webinar. And the more I think about it, I just don't know that that's, I want to leave that long term. I just, I think that's beating people on that it is live. You know? It went when it's not actually.
And so I want to, I'm going to experiment with, with not having the chat role in there and, and maybe even doing less things that make people believe it's live and see, cause I've got a lot of data and, and see, and let's compare the conversion rates. And my hope is that it converts just as well and that it's the content. Right?
And it's me and piano in 21 days that are converting people to the sale and not the live aspect or the chat role or things like that. So over the next few weeks, I'm going to, I'm going to be experimenting with that and I'll be happy to kind of share some of my findings from those experiments.
David Krohse: That sounds good.
Jacques Hopkins: Does that, does that make sense? I mean, you understand what I mean by chat roll and evergreen and prerecorded versus versus, you know, using a recording from a live webinar.
David Krohse: I do at the end of the day, from the perspective of the person watching, it comes down to scarcity. Like is the scarcity real or is this scarcity fake? You know, you and I would say that there's real scarcity for that particular email address. So from that perspective, it is real scarcity. I think that makes sense.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. I'm gonna, I'm going to try it. I, I wanna I really want to hone in on that. I want, I want everybody to have as good experience, good of an experience as possible when they interact with the brand piano in 21 days.
And, and I certainly have had, I've gotten emails from people that I look. I know that this was prerecorded and I don't think you did it the right way. And so I want to, I want to take a deep dive look into that. This is something Nate and I still talk about a good bit to this day is how to, you know, how to navigate that.
And so, you know, that's, that's something on my mind right now. And the last thing I want to talk about as far as the webinars goes, is, is more on the live side is I want to do more live webinars. I did, I did a live webinar for my piano audience about a week ago. Went really well, I think live, I made about eight set, sales.
And it, you know, the replay and the, you know, with the, with the full relaunch strategy of a webinar, there's a lot of emails and, and just it's, it's a launch event, not just a webinar. I've made a ton of sales just from that webinar and the things that go around it. And first and foremost, I'll tell you, live webinars are a lot of fun cause you get to actually, you know, real time interact with your audience.
They get to ask you questions and you get that real time feedback. And I've been doing a lot of non-live kind of relaunches lately, like product launch formula relaunches where you send out pre launch videos and stuff. Right now I'm just talking about relaunching to my old list and did a live webinar for January, you know, 2020 new year and it went really well.
I'm excited about that, but I did a lot of non evergreen, you know, to tie this back to what I was talking about five minutes ago, I did a lot of non evergreen things. I talked about this being a new year. It's 2020 you know, it's January 2020 if you want to learn piano this year, you know, this is the right place to do it and so on.
So that's kind of what I wanted to talk about webinar related here before we get into this interview with David Wallimann, let's jump back to what you were mentioning a little while ago about wanting to run something by me related to your webinar.
David Krohse: Correct. So just to let people know, my class or my course is for chiropractors and I made it location specific. So let's say in Baton Rouge right now, I don't have someone that's joined my course there. I would. How? How big is Baton Rouge Rouge, again?
Jacques Hopkins: About 500,000 people.
David Krohse: 500,000 people. So in general, I would say only one chiropractor gets to join in that town. What I was thinking of doing. It's interesting how when you start a course, you think one person's going to join and then you find out it's something different, but I thought it was going to be people that were really struggling that would join my course.
It turns out that it's people that are very successful. I mean, they have the money and they're willing to do what it takes to have a greater level of success. The idea I was thinking is if I make the webinar, I would actually have my wife or an employee like reach out to like 10 chiropractors in Baton Rouge and say, Hey, we chose you because you're centrally located.
You have more than one doctor. And we looked at your website and your Google reviews and it looks like you're doing a great job. We think that you could take the system, run with it and have like just knock it out of the park success. And so then I would have like kind of a separate webinar that basically just gives those people compliments and says, we believe that you could make 40, 50, $60,000 with this program in the first year, if not more.
So. I dunno. What do you think about going old school and actually picking up the phone and trying to, trying to get people to like. Get into the webinar, obviously that would also create a different type of scarcity because I would be saying like, we're reaching out to 10 chiropractors in Baton Rouge. Only one of them gets to join.
Jacques Hopkins: This is a really, this is interesting cause you're, you're B to B, right? Business to business. Whereas, you know, piano in 21 days is more B to C business straight, straight to the consumer itself. So something like this, I don't think I could ever apply to my online course business, but it's an interesting thought for yours because you are a chiropractor.
You have a course on increasing sales in a chiropractic practice. You know you can help people. And so you're, you're trying to figure out how to, how to get in front of more chiropractors and chiropractic practices that you know, you could help. All right, so this is, this is kind of a kind of different ballgame and it makes me think back to, you know, when I was first quitting my job a few years ago, I thought, I thought I was going to make it as a digital marketing consultant, right?
I thought that's how I was going to do really well. Fortunately, piano in 21 days really took off, I vastly increased my knowledge of, of online courses, and now my niche is kind of piano and online courses. But back then one of the biggest strategies, you know, people would talk about just as far as digital marketing getting clients, was this concept of lumpy mail.
Have you heard of that?
David Krohse: No, I haven't.
Jacques Hopkins: So I would, I would suggest you look into it and consider doing what you're saying, but maybe instead of a phone call or cause that's cold calling is what that is. Or or cold email, you try this, this concept of lumpy mail, which is, which is a package that in some way is, is lumpy. It's not just a standard envelope. Right?
So one of, just to give you an example of, one thing people would recommend is you could buy these little trash cans probably four inches tall, you know, about three, three inches in diameter, and maybe have like a fake, you know, $20 bill hanging out of it and you have a note in there and said, are you, are you throwing money away with your marketing? Or something like that.
And, and then you could say, my name is David Krohse. I help chiropractors do this. You know, I've been looking into you a little bit. I checked your in say the things you just said, right? I've checked your Google reviews, I know you have this, this and this. I think my system is perfect for you. Go here to learn more. It's totally free, right?
And then you can do delivery confirmation on the, on the physical package. You know, if they got it or not, then you can always vote follow up on that with a phone call or with an email. Right. But it's just a way to break through that barrier. Cause I don't, I don't know about you, but like. Well, my cell phone, like unless I know who the person is that's calling me, I don't really answer it anymore. Right?
David Krohse: Sure.
Jacques Hopkins: Or emails. I mean, I get, I get tons of emails and, if somebody just pitching me that, I don't know. I pretty much always just mark it as spam, you know? I don't have time for that anymore, but if I get a package in the mail, you darn right I'm going to open it and see what's going on.
David Krohse: All right, well that sounds good. It sounds like I have a couple of options.
Jacques Hopkins: There's, there's no harm in trying.
David Krohse: Exactly.
Jacques Hopkins: Just like almost anything else. And we're doing here. As long as it's ethical and moral, there's no real harm in trying it. So hopefully you'll keep us posted on that. I think it's got real potential.
David Krohse: Sounds good.
Jacques Hopkins: Let's go ahead and move on to talking about our really focus of today's episode, and that's the interview with David Wallimann. He is a return guest. He was first with us back on episode 57 so if you want to kind of get to the first interview, feel free to, you know, listeners out there, go back and listen to episode 57; it's one of my favorite so far, which is why I had David comeback on. I won't spoil too much. I have a lot of thoughts on this particular episode, so why don't we go ahead and play the episode, play the interview for the audience and, and then you, David, David Krohse, and myself we'll come back and talk about this interview on the other side. Does that sound good?
David Krohse: Sounds great.
Jacques Hopkins: All right. Let's jump into the full conversation with David Wallimann right now.
Hello, David. Welcome back to The Online Course Show.
David Wallimann: Hey Jacques. It's great to be here.
Jacques Hopkins: It's good to see you. It's, it's been a little too long, I would say. I was going back to, well, I'll be honest with you, right before we got on, just now, I re-listened to our last episode.
David Wallimann: Yup.
Jacques Hopkins: I was out in the yard, I was doing a little yard work and I listened to our episode back in episode 57.
David Wallimann: Yup.
Jacques Hopkins: That was over a year ago. And so here's, here's how I want to kind of approach this. I haven't done a ton of research on you on what you've been doing in the past year. I just made notes of from the last episode, and I'd love to hear what's been going on with you since we last talked and get some updates from that last episode.
And I gotta tell you this, David, your story is one of my favorites and one of the ones I share most because of your consistency and your simplicity, right? So here's, here's a quick synopsis of, of the story that I tell about you. You can tell me if it's right or wrong.
David Wallimann: Okay.
Jacques Hopkins: All right. I'm like, all right. There's this guy, David Wallimann and he's an online guitar, he has an online guitar course, and for the past 10 years, he has put out three videos on YouTube per week for the past 10 years. And that's basically his only traffic source. And then the guy, you know, he makes tens of thousands of dollars per month selling his online guitar course.
And that one traffic source is his YouTube channel. And my point is, Hey, don't just make an online course and then hope you get traffic or start buying ads. Like, let's build an audience. Let's pick a platform like YouTube and start putting out content consistently. Is that a fair assessment of what you've done?
David Wallimann: Yes, but when you say it, it sounds like the guy's nuts. Why would he do that? That's a lot of a lot of work and I'm glad you brought this up because there is, I'm sure we're going to, we're going to talk about the situation now because what you say has this flip side to it. And I'm sure we will. We'll talk about it in a second.
Jacques Hopkins: Well,
David Wallimann: I'll, I'll leave it at that for now.
Jacques Hopkins: Well, I know, I know I've simplified the story certainly, but I think that consistent content is one thing that people like to skip or, or get lazy on. They'll do, they'll do some videos and then take a break and, and whatnot. And last time I was just so impressed by the sheer quantity of videos on your channel and how that's basically the one, the one traffic source you were getting and making a very good living, doing what you love.
All right, so you mentioned the flip side or the downside to, to all of this. What is that?
David Wallimann: So the downside is that after doing something for so long, you get an a in a habit and you stop asking yourself, is this really necessary? Am I doing this out of habit or am I doing it because it's really working?
And also something that may have worked in the first few months of a business might not be relevant anymore. And so all those things led me to, to wake up one day and realize that I can't do it anymore. I cannot do another video I'm going to throw up if I do another one. I'm thrilled that happened because today things are quite different, much better.
But that's the flip side. The flip side is that it's easy to overwork and it's easy to do things out of habit and just kind of get into this mentality that I, I tried to escape for so long. Becoming an entrepreneur was to really escape, you know, the eight to five type of job where you're doing things just for the paycheck, but I was back into that space.
I had done like three videos a week for so long. And so that happened in September I think that led me to asking myself the important questions that we should all ask ourselves. Are three videos per week really necessary? What happens if I stop completely or maybe they aren't necessary and maybe I need to double up on that? Or, you know, is one enough? Like all those questions.
I, though, so the first question that I asked myself was, can I stop doing videos? And it is very, very difficult to put that into action. But I knew that I had to because I knew that if I continued doing three videos a week, well first of all, I couldn't physically do it. And I just, I just had to try it. So I tried.
I stopped making videos for a few weeks. Just enough to see the stats, the sales, the analytics of the videos and all of that stuff. It turns out that making videos is an important part of my business. So going to zero was not a good option, but I, I tried different things and today that I realized that three videos was overkill and two videos seems to be the sweet spot for me.
So that is the first realization. So yeah, I went from doing three videos a week to two, which, you know, one third of my work was basically eliminated just like that. Along with that realization that I didn't have to do the things that I had been doing for 10 years, I started to ask myself if there are other things that I could cut back and do, really taking a hard look at everything that I, that I was doing.
I realized that one of the big frustrations that I had when it came to making videos was not really having a plan. Because I was such in a habit of making the same kind of videos over and over the same topics over and over, that oftentimes I would show up in the studio, hit record on the cameras, and just free form the videos and without really having any, any plan at all.
And so I, I started organizing the content very simply. But what I did was to look at the analytics of the videos. And I looked at the videos that worked, and along with that I surveyed my, my list, asking them something along the lines of what is, you know, what, what do you really struggle with on, on your guitar journey?
And I came up with four topics. There were four topics, recurring topics that people always struggle with. Is that maybe I'm going too far with with this?
I hope this is okay.
Jacques Hopkins: No, this is perfect. Keep going.
David Wallimann: Okay. So I create a spreadsheet, a spreadsheet with four different, different sheets corresponding to the four types of things that my audience are struggling with. And then under each of these sheets, I would just list topics in form of a title, the video, a title of the video, and so now and that that really took about, you know, maybe a couple of afternoons, just a bunch of different topics.
And so now I have a year plan of two videos a week ahead that I need to film still, but the topics are all laid out and all I need to do now is get to the studio, sit down, pick you know, three, four titles and just record and just record on those topics and it, it's very, very freeing because I don't have to have this weird anxiety on what am I gonna teach today? What am I going to say?
I know that these topics are relevant with each of these topics. I have a, a lead magnet that will go specifically for that video. I mean, everything is prepped now. It's way easier than, than before. So about a year ago when we first talked, I was, I was really kind of like in the grind of things, doing three videos a week trying to keep up. The things are way easier now, basically.
Jacques Hopkins: Man, that's, that's very interesting. I'm not sure what, which part to attack first. So I mean, I think burnout is obviously a very real thing, especially when you're, you're doing as much as you're doing. And I remember specifically asking you last time cause I was so impressed by the sheer quantities.
Like how do you, how do you still have new topics to teach about? And so, you know, now you have, I think, a better answer for that and that you've basically planned out the next year of videos. So you, you got, you got seriously burned out and you decided to just stop for a second, just take a step back and stop.
David Wallimann: Yeah.
Jacques Hopkins: And you said that wasn't a good idea. And I'm surprised to hear that David. I'm surprised that all of this, these videos you've been putting out there weren't good enough to sustain you for this period of time while you're figuring things out. What, what wasn't working when you stopped?
David Wallimann: I just didn't get enough people in to my, my email system basically. And without that, the sales kind of drop a little bit. It's not, you know, I, I always thought that YouTube videos, they, I mean, they do live forever on YouTube, but in order for YouTube to do its thing and promote your channel, it kinda needs to see a regular activity on the platform. And I think that's what happens.
My, you know, YouTube was kind of, it didn't really share my content as much as it does now because I just saw a drop basically in activity in that platform. So that's kind of the flip side of, of YouTube. People might think that, Oh, I'm gonna make a video and it's going to be there forever. Yes. But you still need to kind of like put, you know, fuel to the fire, to the YouTube fire so that it continues to push your content a little bit.
And so today, and I don't want it to sound like it's a bad idea to do YouTube videos, I think it's a great idea. But today I'm just trying to find ways to continue this activity, but the smart way without getting burned out and just make it fun. But yeah, that's what happened when I stopped. I just saw a little bit of a dip.
In the, the YouTube algorithm. No, it's not. It's never, maybe people don't want to hear this, but it's never 100% passive. there's always a little bit of things you need to do, or at least that's what I found.
Jacques Hopkins: Sure. Well, you know, it's, it's not like your sales went to zero. You were still making sales based on those older videos. And this is really interesting for me because you know, one of my biggest traffic sources for my piano course, if not the biggest, is also YouTube. I've got more probably more traffic sources than you do, but for me, I have not taken the same approach to YouTube as you have. I've got significantly less videos than you. I like to preach about consistency on YouTube when I haven't necessarily done that myself.
David Wallimann: Yup.
Jacques Hopkins: Fortunately for me, I've got a couple of videos, almost three now that have over a million views each.
David Wallimann: Nice.
Jacques Hopkins: So do you think maybe that's the reason that I've gotten away with not consistently putting videos out there and it's still being a very good traffic source for me?
David Wallimann: Yeah, it's very possible. I don't know what the algorithm really wants. Who knows? It changes all the time. But I would, I would imagine that with so many views, that video is kind of like a stable in its own regards. And YouTube was probably pushing it. And then it depends on so many things like piano players versus guitar players. I don't know. Maybe your niche is. I have no idea. There's so many factors. Who knows?
Jacques Hopkins: Well, you know, they, the YouTube and Google, they don't let you know how their algorithm works. So we just have to try things and see what's work. So, you know, for 10 years you tried one thing and it worked really well, and then you questioned it and stopped, and that didn't work as well. And so now you're back on a new plan that seems to be working for you.
David Wallimann: Yeah.
Jacques Hopkins: For me. For me, what I've done has worked, but it's what you're saying right now has me questioning like how much better could I be doing if I put out two videos a week or something? If what you're saying is true.
David Wallimann: Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Jacques Hopkins: So it sounds like the two big changes you made in terms of your YouTube strategy has been shifting from three videos a week to two videos a week and just having a better plan for those videos. Better future plan.
David Wallimann: Yup. Yes.
Jacques Hopkins: Now, considering what you've been going through, this burnout and all that. Would your with, with this new experience, has your recommendation for somebody just getting started with a YouTube channel or wanting to start an online course, has that changed in the past year?
David Wallimann: No, I still think it's an awesome idea to put something out there, whether it's YouTube or something else, and an online course is like, it's awesome. It's, it's the best thing in the world, I think, for me, I just think that just approach it with a little bit of wisdom.
Don't, don't feel that you always have to out. Well, just just beat your neighbor. That's another aspect really. You know, I wasn't completely, not that I wasn't truthful, but I forgot a big part of my burnout. The big part was the analytics and the numbers, so I was very, very caught up in numbers. Like I would check my YouTube analytics six, seven times a day.
Anytime I made a sale on a course, I would get an email from that sale. So I'd constantly checked my email. Those numbers were really contributing to my, to my fall, because if you have a good month, that month becomes the reference and you want to beat that month and it doesn't work like that.
And you know, with success. Success is great. Financial success is awesome, but there's also a flip side to that that could kind of get to your head a little bit. Sometimes it was getting to my head and, and that is a bad thing. I was really in a bad space because I always wanted more and more and more and more and more.
More views, more money, more, you know, all those things. Hopefully I'm not, yeah, I hope I could talk about this. I don't want to appear like a, Oh, David's such a greedy person. Always want to know. I'm not like that anymore, but sorry, I'm kind of losing my train of thought here.
Jacques Hopkins: Well, let me let, I love that you said this, David, because I have a similar story from, from about a year ago. I mean, you could tell me if you think it's kind of a similar train of thought, but January of 2019 I had the best month. I have had financially and basically, let's just say piano course sales, most course sales revenue from that exceeded $50,000 in piano course sales for a month for the first time.
Late in 2018 I had tweaked some things, made some changes that I was excited about, and so I was like, yeah. It worked. January's awesome.
David Wallimann: Yup.
Jacques Hopkins: So in my mind, I'm thinking this is the new normal, if not more.
David Wallimann: Yeah.
Jacques Hopkins: Right?
David Wallimann: Yes.
Jacques Hopkins: And as it turns out, January 20 19th is still my highest month ever. Right? Nothing. Nothing has been as high as that. And so I kind of reset my expectations based on that. And I don't think that's a very mature approach to take with what we're doing. In fact, you know, I'm a big proponent of the book Profit First by Mike Michalowicz. I don't know if you've familiar with it, but he, he even warned me about that.
I've read that book multiple times and he's even, he even warns you in that book. He says, you know, you as, as business owners and entrepreneurs, there's going to be ups and downs in, in everything. And when, when there's ups, you cannot assume that that's the new normal. And the same goes for when, when there's downs.
And so he, he likes more for you to look at like the past 12 months and figure out what kind of an averages and not just assume that what's happening right now is the new normal. And I wish I would've taken that advice back then and there was nothing devastating that happened or anything. But yeah. It was just my expectations.
David Wallimann: Right.
Jacques Hopkins: And so now, so far, you know, we're recording this kind of mid January, 2020 and this, this month is exceeding so far last January of 2019. It's a great month so far. And what I'm realizing is people are just really excited to learn piano in the new year. I think that's going to always be the case for my business.
I bet it's similar for your business as well. A lot of people may be getting a keyboards for Christmas, making new year's resolutions. So fortunately I'm set up this year to not have the expectation of it being the new normal, but this is the, this is maybe more normal for January and February is going to be good, but not as good.
March is going to go a little down and, and I've learned that kind of, August is my worst month and there's a curve to it. It's not, it's not steady. So yeah. I felt like that kind of went along with what you were just saying.
David Wallimann: It does. Yeah. So I think back to would I still encourage people to come up with an online course? Do YouTube videos or Twitter or whatever it is?
But just with the understanding that, like you said, there are going to be ups and downs, and you're right, you probably need to do that. Someone probably needs to do this at least 6 months before making any, you know, conclusions to the business because yeah, look at the trends.
And even if you could look at a year back, instead of seeing how much, how much did I make or how much, how many new subscribers or whatever it is on a daily or monthly basis, just look at the bigger picture. And that's, I think that's the wiser approach. And I didn't do that until September, and that's why I, I had this like, you know, there's this fall in September, which I got back up better because I stopped doing what I was doing for so long.
Jacques Hopkins: It sounds like you've come out the other end much more with much more wisdom now, David.
David Wallimann: Yeah, much happier for sure.
Jacques Hopkins: That's great. That's great. You seem, you seem to be just, you seem to be kind of giddy about where your business is right now and as this fantastic, one thing I remember from talking with you last time is you were just starting to go down some kind of changes with your branding and things like that. Whatever happened with that. Where, where, where are things with your brand and branding?
David Wallimann: So I can't remember exactly where I was about a year ago or when we talked, but today I, I'm going back to the original brand so that the business started under guitarplayback.com.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. So just so you know, you, we kind of ended the episode. You were saying that guitar playback is not going to be a thing anymore.
David Wallimann: Okay, okay. So that's, that's good. So you're right. And I, I transitioned to, so having my last name and the business, I don't want to do that anymore for multiple reasons. I tried to establish this on the videos, you know, trying to strengthen the brand, saying, Hey, this David from the David Wallimann Guitar Artistry, which was the brand. It never really flowed under my tongue. I just, I don't know. I know it's hard to say for me and just didn't feel natural.
Plus it was so, you know, I don't want to be the brand, even though I am the brand. I don't want to be the brand. I want to expand. I want a, you know, I want it to become something else.
And the thought was, well, I can, I can change the perception of people. You know, I'll, I'll use Wallimann, but eventually, which is my last name. But eventually Wallimann people will associate it with something else like Fender guitars or Gibson or whatever. It's been done before, but it's not easy to change the perception when you're the brand.
Plus I realized that most people, you still recognize guitar [00:37:00] playback as the brand, and also there would be a lot of URL changes if I had to go with the new brand and I never took that route. So anyways, yeah, guitar playback is what it is now, and I'm, I'm taking actions to really solidify that brand. So logo change and things like that.
It's what's going on now.
Jacques Hopkins: Oh, good for you. I mean, all we can really do is try things and see what works.
David Wallimann: Exactly.
Jacques Hopkins: And if it does work, we stick with it. If it doesn't, we go back. It sounds like you've been doing a lot of that in the past year.
David Wallimann: Yeah, too much maybe. I don't know. But yeah. Huh.
Jacques Hopkins: All right. Looking at my notes here, are you still on Teachable? You still liking the Teachable platform?
David Wallimann: Yeah. I still like it. It's working well for me.
Jacques Hopkins: Any, any other tools that you're loving these days? Any, any new tools in the past year?
David Wallimann: The newest one is probably Crisp, a platform that centralizes all your emails and Facebook messages and, and things like that. So instead of, you know, logging into a Facebook to answer comments there, or my emails, I have several emails. I'll just go to Crisp. Everything is centralized.
That's another, another step that I took after that September awakening, we'll call it. I transition to Crisp to save time, and I have someone helping me with emails now, answering emails. Which is very freeing. But yeah, the, the good thing with that, that I love about that particular tool is that you can also set shortcuts.
So if someone has, there are recurring problems with a business such as someone not able to access his lessons because of a forgotten password or whatever it is. I'll just type my email, my, my standard response and assigned a password, a shortcut to that. So if someone has a problem with access. It's like a hot key.
It's like exclamation mark access, and then the whole answer is there and just click send and, and, and that's it. So anyways, Crisp is one of the tools that I really like these days.
Jacques Hopkins: Well, that, that's, that's neat. I've never heard of it. My, my assistant Emily helps manage my emails. Plus also, you know, YouTube comments and Facebook messages.
And. So that's, that's interesting. In fact, that, you know, she's, she's going to be listening to this episode to put the show notes together. Hey Emily, when you're listening to this, look into Crisp and let me know if you think that'll be a good tool for you to use to help manage all of this. And now, you know, speaking of, of help, I noticed as I was scanning your YouTube channel, as we're talking, one of your most recent videos says, join the team.
What are you looking at? What type of person you're looking to add to your team?
David Wallimann: Yeah. So I'm looking for a web designer, web developer, kind of an all around person, not necessarily a an expert, but someone that, that is passionate about those things and can just kind of grow with the company and, and be part of the team. So yeah, if anyone's out there, just contact Jacques who maybe will contact me.
Jacques Hopkins: Well, what's the, I see this post basically on YouTube, and obviously that's your biggest presence out there. You know, 173,000 subscribers. Super impressive. What do you, what's your, what's your process for, for making a hire? Is it, is it because you have that presence just making a post there on YouTube?
David Wallimann: Pretty much. Yeah. And I also made a post on Facebook. The idea behind it is that maybe I could reach, you know, more professionals by using someone like LinkedIn or something like that. But I really want someone who likes what I do and kind of knows me to be a team player really. So that was kind of the idea behind that.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. Tap, tap into your existing audience that kinda kinda likes you and trusts you already, and then, you know, would hopefully be a good person to work.
David Wallimann: Exactly.
Jacques Hopkins: To work with.
David Wallimann: Yep.
Jacques Hopkins: All right. Next question, David. I got a, I got a question this morning from somebody in my audience. I'm starting this new thing this year where on Fridays I'm going to just turn on the camera.
It's called Friday morning ice coffee Q and A with Jacques. So anybody out there listening, you know, come to the online course community Facebook group and I'll be doing Facebook lives on Friday morning just answering people's questions. Well, I've got a question today. And I did my best to answer, but I think you are highly qualified to answer this question.
Guy named Chris is in the guitar niche and he is, he is teaching. You know, his main income comes from in-person, local lessons.
David Wallimann: Yup.
Jacques Hopkins: And he's, he's got an online course. He's working on selling more online courses and less of the in-person stuff, but he's struggling with kind of the mindset of people that come to him.
Cause everybody that comes to him now is expecting in-person lessons, not an online course. And he's struggling with, with kind of transitioning of how people think about him as an online teacher as opposed to an in person teacher. And I know you started at in-person as well and transition online. So what advice would you give to somebody like Chris?
David Wallimann: Yeah, I can totally relate. What I did is instead of going full blown online course, which I, I get it, it can seem a little impersonal sometimes, but what I did is kind of an in between stage to kind of test the waters. I don't know if Chris does like actual physical one-on-one or Skype lessons, but what I did is explain to the few students that I had, and at the time it was, it was more Skype one-on-one type thing.
And I, and I told them that. I had this idea to, to transition to online courses, and I told my students that the reality is this. I often teach the same thing to you that I would do the next student and the next student and the next student, and if I have five students in a, in a row, even though each of these students will pay the same amount of money, the fifth student is not going to get a very good lesson and you might not get a very good lesson because I'm tired after five lessons and I was just very honest. And it's not fair to you.
And I'm teaching you know the same concepts to a group of you guys. So would you allow me to film the video to pre-film your video and you will get basically you will get most of the video, kind of a pre filmed thing. And then I, I changed the intro. I would give a little personal thing. Okay Jacques, this is your lesson at the end of this work on these things and here we go. So it is kind of like an in between thing and people were, and also offered this at a cheaper rate than the one-on-one thing.
Would that allowed me to do was to build my first course basically made of all these semi individual lessons or personalized, you know, videos. So students would get a cheaper rate. I had my first course done and then I started to promote that first course online, but that's what I advise Chris to try maybe try to film those videos, personalize them a little bit, and just test it that way. You don't have to go full 100% and, but...
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, and start to get some, some existing students maybe transitioning over to more online. Pretty sure that his, the students he's gotten now are, are physical in person, not just one-on-one Skype.
David Wallimann: Yup.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. All right, cool though. I appreciate that and hopefully Chris appreciates the personal response there from you.
Next question, David. There's a, there's a lot of people in the music niche that listen to this podcast. You know, cause they, I guess they resonate with my message of having a successful online piano course.
David Wallimann: Yup.
Jacques Hopkins: So we're both in the music niche. I'm curious, how do you handle music licensing? Because a lot of other niches don't have to deal with this in terms of wanting to teach copywritten music. How do you handle it in your courses?
David Wallimann: Oh man. For me it's simple. I just don't teach any songs. I just do improvisation. So scales, theory and all that stuff. So I don't really deal with that problem cause I don't give any examples or anything like that. I mean, the examples are my [inaudible] basically, so.
Jacques Hopkins: Well, so like if I'm, if I don't know how to play guitar, but if I wanted to learn how to play guitar, to me playing guitar is playing songs. So how can I take a course that doesn't actually teach me songs?
David Wallimann: Well, you, you would go see another teacher. Now so, so that was a choice from the beginning. I don't teach beginners. So the people who come to me are intermediate to advanced. I've been playing for you know, five plus years, and they're interested in something very particular.
They're interested in the theory and improvisation. So I don't do beginners. So that's kinda how I deal with the problem. I'd love to know if you, if you know how to deal with those licensing issues, that'd be really interesting.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, I might have to do, I might have to do a like a future episode on that for sure. And it is certainly complicated. I'm just curious. I was just curious about it, but that's interesting that you're, you're more of an intermediate to advanced guitar teacher, so I could understand why you would be teach, have to teach less actual songs and more, I guess just random things too, to help it improve somebody that's already pretty good at the guitar.
David Wallimann: Yeah. Yup.
Jacques Hopkins: What's coming up next, David? What's, what's going on in your world for 2020?
David Wallimann: I'm going to keep working on streamlining the business, eliminating things. My real goal is to free my time from some of the things that someone else could do because no help allow me to focus on other things. And then plus, you know, if I can bless other people by giving them a job, that's awesome.
I'd rather do that than, than having to painfully do it myself. But I would love to, you know, I'd love to get into coaching maybe like business coaching and share some of the things that I've learned. I would love to, I love to do a podcast too. I've always wanted to do maybe a video podcast type of thing based on guitar where I dunno, I kind of picture a kind of a late night show that you would see on on on TV, but in a podcast video form. I'm not quite sure yet, but I just want to explore other things like that, that that sounds fun to me. We'll see. But right now, just kind of like taking time to breathe with the two video weekly thing, which is manageable and just enjoying my kids growing up and just kind of taking it easy really.
Jacques Hopkins: Well, look, it's been a pleasure catching up again, glad to hear things are going well for you at this moment in time. To wrap this up, just let us know if there's anything else you want to share with the audience and remind us where we can find your stuff online.
David Wallimann: Yeah, so the best place is my YouTube channel. Youtube.com/wallimann. That's two L's, two N's and thanks for listening, everyone. Good luck with everything. You can do it. If I've done it, you can do it.
Jacques Hopkins: Thanks man. Take care.
And that's a wrap on the conversation with David Wallimann. David Krohse welcome back.
David Krohse: Thanks.
Jacques Hopkins: All right, man. So for me, the conversation started a little touch and go, all right, because I told, I told him like, Hey, you're what your stories is one of my favorite, and it really is like I tell his story all the time when I want people to not be so lazy with, with creating free content, getting on a platform like YouTube, making that content and putting it out. And he's like, yeah, man, I just got so burnt out. Like I had to stop. Right?
But I think, you know, there's, there's a lot of takeaways. All I have from that, so let me, let me kind of start here. I think that it's important to always be auditing and maybe even questioning your processes and the way you do things. Because as it turns out, like what he said is he didn't need to just quit his three videos a day. He feels like, you know, two videos is better. But I think even more importantly, scheduling it out and planning them better. Right?
Cause if you, if you keep going into your office without a plan and you have, you know, you have to create these three videos. You don't have a plan? You don't even know what your topic is like, that's, that's stressful for me. But if you can, if you can separate that planning process from the actual recording process, then that works a lot better. But [00:49:00] at a higher level, what he did was he audited how he was doing things and figure it out the weak links and made it even better.
So the last thing I want is somebody to listen to this episode and, and not create content, not put videos on YouTube because of what David's saying. No, David's still go look at David's. Go look at David's YouTube channel. I did this right. He, he said he stopped. He might've stopped for a week because he is still been putting videos out there that there is, there is almost no gap in there. Right?
So that's kind of the, the big, the big takeaway from me and really, you know, none of this is ever going to be perfect. It's always going to be a work in progress. You know, I love striving for perfection and that's one of my weaknesses is cause sometimes I don't get things out there because I'm trying to make it perfect.
But first and foremost, that's what I wanted to say is, is let's, let's look at this as a positive and not a negative. What do you think about that?
David Krohse: I think that's exactly right. I mean, I think this was a really good one to hear. I mean, people are all different phases in this, and there's probably more of us listening, myself included that were like, Oh man, there's this dream of just having a course and you know, the idea of just effort-free income.
And it was good to hear that, you know, there's, there's always going to be struggles. Grass is greener, but you know, we always have, have kind of battles to face. One thing I do want to ask you, Jacques, I mean, multiple times you've said that you're an engineer or you were an engineer and like you've never actually said what the company you worked for made.
And then the other thing like, I mean, I've been curious for a while, like if you would be willing to tell the story of like, when you quit your job. Because obviously there was a quitting point, but like what's the actual story of that transition point? Like, like at the time, did you like your boss or did you actually like just were tempted to go in and like flick the guy off as you walked out the door?
What, what did you actually do? What did you make?
Jacques Hopkins: So my, my official title and what we did was, it was called an automation engineer. So where I live here on the Gulf coast, there's a lot of, refineries, plants, chemical plants, all that. And they have these, these processes, you know, these, these systems that make, make this stuff, right?
And what we would do is we'd go in and automate these processes. So we would go program these, these devices called PLCs and DCSs to, you know, let's, let's take a really simple example. You know, you could have this pipe, right, and have a, a pressure transmitter wired into our, you know, our device. And also, let's say there's a valve on the pipe.
Well, you can say, we can write a little program that says, if the pressure gets too high, close this valve. Super simple example. That's basically what we did. I worked at that same company. Really the only company I worked for for about eight years. Half of that, I was kind of the engineer, programmer guy. The other half I became more of a project manager. I got my MBA and switched over to the business side.
Had the exact same boss the entire time. Absolutely loved him. Phenomenal boss. Which you know, was, is what made it harder to quit because I had built up relationships with people. I didn't hate my job, right?
It was a, it was a pretty good fit for me, but I just knew, I knew that I wanted something different like I'm doing now. Right? I'm doing my own thing, like I'm calling the shots and it's in more of a niche and a market that I'm, I'm interested in and passionate about, and so I basically gave them like a year notice.
I'm like, look. Yeah, I've got these side projects, they're starting to take off a little bit, like I'm just letting you know, my days here are numbered and it was about a year later that I actually quit because I wanted to make sure that everything I had was handed off properly. That, you know, I help find my replacement and all that.
And the original plan was actually to go, I was going to go part time for a little bit, but that ended up not just, just not really working out. For either side. And so it wasn't going to be a clean break. At first, I was going to go part time, you know, 20 hours a week. But I did that for like a week or two and we both realized that wasn't working and there was just, it was just over like that, which is crazy, but I'm still friends with a lot of people there.
You know, they're in town here in Baton Rouge, you know, there wasn't really any, any bad blood on either side, so it was a pretty clean break I would say.
David Krohse: Do you think they were worried about you or do you think that they were like, Oh, he's going to make it. If you really look back.
Jacques Hopkins: Well, you know, we have, we were, we were contractors, so we had a lot of clients and so, and I had, I had good relationships with a lot of our clients and everything cause I was a project manager.
And so people would be like, wait, you're, you're quitting your engineering job to teach piano? Like, I don't, I don't get it. You know? So there was a lot of, people were very curious, but I think it all worked out.
David Krohse: Yeah. That's awesome. Very cool story.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. I appreciate you asking. Is there anything else you wanted to mention about this? The conversation with David Wallimann?
David Krohse: Sure. I had a couple of other things. YouTube. It was interesting how he said YouTube wants the steady content, and I was just thinking like, you know, YouTube, they want to be able to send out the notifications and email to subscribers. I mean, they know if, if like David Wallimann puts out a video and all those notifications go out, then those people are going to come to the platform and they're going to hang around for, on average 20 minutes.
And so that was just kind of interesting for me to say like, you know, no matter what platform you're on, you want to ask the question, like what actually benefits that platform and make your content accordingly. Because that was, that was an interesting part of the discussion.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. And for YouTube and for YouTube, I like, I, you know, I think it's hard to execute on two to three videos a week.
Like he, like he's done, and it depends on your niche and your capability as well. But I like. Well, once a week I think is great. If people can do a YouTube video once a week, I think that's phenomenal. I, at the very least once a month, I think is what what you need to do and be consistent with it.
David Krohse: The other thing I just appreciated both you and David just sharing stories about like up and down months and like just business is a roller coaster because I've experienced that so much throughout my chiropractic career.
Like I always thought I was going to go exponential and yeah, I'd have a great month and be like, I'm on my way. Like, and then things would kind of tumble back down and it was easy to get down like I would say that when you have one of those down months, you have to be careful who you talk to because I remember probably three years into practice, like everybody knows in chiropractic, like December and January going to be slow because of the holidays and then all the deductibles resetting. And so historically in the first three years I would do this big mailing to all the people that were on my list to try to actually like counteract that.
By that third or fourth year, I was like, Oh, I think I have enough momentum where I don't have to mess with this big mailing. And like I had a super slow month and so I ended up calling my mom. And I'm on the phone with her. I was probably driving somewhere to buy some hot tamales cause that's like my bad day food.
But I'm like on my phone with my mom and I'm like, ah man. Like I'm, I'm three and a half, whatever, four years into practice and it's just still slowed down. And my mom was just like giving me all these reasons. She's like, Oh, it's all right, like people are just busy and, and I was like, mom, I'm like, you need to like, I'm like, you need to like just tell me like get my head out of my butt and like figure out how to make March the biggest month ever.
You know? Like. Yeah. Be careful who you call when things slow down. One of one of my favorite quotes, I think my wife shared this one with me, but it's don't tell me how tall the waves are. Tell me how you're going to get to shore. You know, you want somebody that says that quote to you when you're like, what the heck?
I thought I was like finally going exponential. Yeah. Be careful about calling your mom.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. That's good. That's a good, that's a good quote. Yeah. Cause I remember talking to David Wallimann about the. About last January, 2019 being so great. And at the time, you know, it was, I spent more money. I was like, Oh, I can, you know, hire this person to do this and I can buy this trinket and this and that.
And like I said, you know, this, this January is going really, really well. Really, really well. Even better than last January. And so now that I've kind of learned that lesson, I'm not increasing any expenses, you know, I, I. Well, I did this last month, I signed up for, you know, Evolved Finance, their bookkeeping services.
I think that's really gonna help me financially as well. So I guess I have that new, that new service. And if anybody out there is making at least a hundred thousand dollars from their course and don't have a bookkeeper, I highly recommend Evolved Finance. They are just, they, they are so, so impressive. So check them out. I'm using them now for my bookkeeping as well. But one of their goals for me, and I guess for most of their clients, is to have three months of operating expenses in the bank. Which is, you know, it's, it's so simple. I don't know why I never really thought about doing that, but I think that's a phenomenal goal.
So this month, you know, with the extra income that's coming in, the extra profit is coming in. You know, I'm saving that, right? I'm not going to spend, I'm going to put it in the bank, we're going to save it. You know, try to build up those, those expenses for a rainy day or for future expenses. So just give me an example or man, anything else from the conversation?
David Krohse: No, that's about it. It's just a, yeah. When you have those ups and downs, you've got to learn from them. You can, like you said, save money as one option. I mean, there are ways to counteract those slow times. Like you could if you said August is the slowest, like you could do a bunch of live webinars, then you could technically run a sale then, or you could say, you know, August is going to be slow, but I know that Dave Ramsey sometimes says that September and October is like the second resolution season of the year.
So you could say, I'm going to. I'm going to spend July and August building up September and October. So yeah, just trying to learn from those roller coasters.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, I love it. Well, David, this has been, I think this was a great, great episode. A lot of good conversations between me and you. And then of course, I enjoyed very much getting back together with David Wallimann as well.
So thanks for joining me here and thank you everybody out there for listening to another episode of The Online Course Show. For all the notes and links from today's episode, you can find the show notes by going to theonlinecourseguy.com/115 and I want to remind everybody again to check out the Facebook live that I'm doing every Friday morning.
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