We’re back with an all-new interview, this time with artist Angela Fehr! Angela recently hit an awesome milestone with her online course business, and it was great to get to know her a bit and chat about her online course journey.

Marketing your course is like parenting or saving money: you could always be doing it better.

Angela Fehr

Angela has approached certain aspects of her course very differently than me, but we also have had a lot of similarities in starting out. It’s always great to hear what works for other course creators, and I think you’re going to enjoy our conversation! 

In This Episode, We Talked About:   

  • (1:47) Updates from me and David on webinars, upcoming travel, and more
  • (6:50) Angela introduces her online course business and shares a recent milestone
  • (10:14) The teaching platform Angela relies on
  • (12:22) Looking back at her online course journey
  • (15:22) Thinking about changes in online course businesses as they become more mainstream
  • (17:01) Building an audience and evolving course content
  • (20:05) When Angela realized that her online course was going to work
  • (21:16) Branding and marketing decisions
  • (26:06) Does Angela use scarcity to drive sales?
  • (27:19) How she spends most of her working time and how she measures growth
  • (31:04) Looking at similarities in how we gain traffic
  • (32:27) How Angela deals with exchange rates for international sales
  • (34:48) Favorite tools and thoughts on keeping things simple early on
  • (40:05) Mighty Networks vs. Facebook Groups
  • (44:03) Angela’s advice for new course creators
  • (46:01) David and I discuss what we’re most impressed by with Angela and her business
  • (48:22) Thoughts on why I prefer Facebook Groups
  • (52:11) Creating courses and moving past imposter syndrome
  • (54:39) Wrapping up

That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show, and don’t forget to sign up for my Online Course Community (link below) if you haven’t already.

Links

Bonjoro Free Trial

Angela’s Website

Teachable

Logitech C920 webcam

Camtasia

Canva

Mighty Networks

Zapier

ConvertKit

Loom

Screen-Cast-O-Matic

The Online Course Community (free Facebook group)

Piano in 21 Days

The Online Course Guy

Jacques Hopkins: Episode 116 is brought to you by Bonjoro. Bonjoro is one of my favorite tools for course creators, and there's really no limit to what you can do with it. It allows you to quickly and easily send a video, a personal video, to anyone with an email address. As most of you know, I use it each and everyday to personally welcome and thank those that sign up for my piano course the day before.

But just the other day I was running late for an appointment I had with somebody coming on to be interviewed for this very show, and instead of sending an email, I sent that person a Bonjoro explaining to them what was going on. I was actually at a doctor's appointment with my daughter and she was able to just be very understanding to my situation and she really appreciated me telling her that information with a Bonjoro.

If you're not using Bonjoro yet, I want you to try it out and you can try it out with a free trial by going to Bonjoro.com/Jacques. That's B O N J O R O dot com slach J A C Q U E S.

Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course, and they're making a living doing it. But not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there is a wrong way, and I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses.

Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins, and this is The Online Course Show.

And off we go. Welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. This is The Online Course Show. I'm your host, Jacques Hopkins, and here with me is our beloved cohost, David Krohse.

David Krohse: Hey there.

Jacques Hopkins: And we're excited to dive into all things online courses with you today. David, welcome to episode 116.

David Krohse: Thank you.

Jacques Hopkins: How are you doing man this morning?

David Krohse: I'm doing great. Spent the weekend working on my webinar and I spent way more time on it than I thought it was going to take. The really great thing, I'm up here in Iowa and it was like negative 20 degree wind chills all weekend long. Like Saturday was like 30 mile an hour winds and then Sunday was just frigid.

Jacques Hopkins: Well, you, you people are, you people are just crazy. You know you can move further South, right?

David Krohse: Yeah. That's something I'd moved to the mountains if I was going to move anywhere.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. To each their own. You know, the, the, the guests that we're going to be listening to me here in a little bit, she is, not only is she from Canada, she's from Northern Canada. I was telling my wife after I got off the call with, with, with Angela Fehr, who we'll hear from a little bit, I was like, Hey babe, the, the, the girl I just interviewed, you know, she's super impressive with their online course and all this, but she's, she's from the North, like she's from Canada, but she's from Northern Canada.

She told me in the interview that, you know, when people picture or think of British Columbia, they think Vancouver. She's like, yeah. Go drive 12 hours North of that and so, no, no, thank you. I'll stay here in South Louisiana and stay relatively warm where cold days are about 50 degrees. Yeah.

David Krohse: You sound kind of smart when you say it that way, but I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure where she lives is beautiful though.

Jacques Hopkins: Oh yeah. Every, I mean. Yeah. As course creators. I mean, if we don't, if this is what we're doing and we don't want to have to go into an office and all that, we can, you know, live anywhere we want just about, I mean, you throw out like friends and family and if your spouse has a job and anything else tying you down, but Hey, I could literally live anywhere and this is where I choose to live.

David Krohse: Yeah. It's super cool. What have you been up to?

Jacques Hopkins: Well, just making things as good as possible. And one thing big on my mind right now is getting ready to go to this ClickFunnels conference, and this episode is going to come out basically the day before that it starts. So I'm sure that we've got some listeners that will be attending that.

So I will be there. I believe I'm set up to to receive that Two Comma Club Award. I mean, I already got it, you know, from ClickFunnels, but they do this thing where you take a picture with Russell Brunson and all that. So hopefully I'll be doing that and meet some listeners to the podcast and having a good time learning things, hopefully help grow my business, and you are not going to that.

David Krohse: No, I'm not. Sorry. You'll have to, you'll have to host the after hours by yourself.

Jacques Hopkins: I'll, I'll somehow try to manage so that that's what's going on. This episode's coming out on January 28th and I believe the conference starts on January 29th so that's the big thing going on over here. But look, we're not going to just, you just glance over your, your webinar to get, give us a little more details on where you are with putting together a webinar for your course.

David Krohse: Well, I've got it recorded, went back through it, and I'm like, there's a couple things that I want to re-record, but then it's onto setting up the technology and just getting it placed and deciding whether I'm going to go start using Deadline Funnel right away or just launch at once without the Deadline Funnel just to test it out. So I don't know. What do you think I should do?

Jacques Hopkins: Well, when you're, so just to clarify for the audience, right? When you're putting together an evergreen webinar, you really have two options. Logistically, you can use a recording from a live webinar or you can just pre-record it and it sounds like you're just, you're just pre-recording it. Is that fair to say?

David Krohse: That's fair.

Jacques Hopkins: There's, you could go a couple of ways with it. I, I'm always a fan of doing less and getting it out rather than trying to do more and never getting it out. Right? So if you're satisfied with your recording and you want to get it out there, great. We can always add Deadline Funnel in later, right? So that's probably what I would suggest you do, is let's go ahead and get something out there as quickly as possible. Get this new funnel out there, and then we can always add layers on top of it.

David Krohse: That sounds great. I did go ahead and switch to Loom. I was like, Oh, I just love that like circular view. But like you said, there's some functionality missing in Loom like it needs a hotkey to toggle between the like sizes of the webcam view. And that was like driving me bonkers because that's a nice little feature. That's the feature I use the most in Screencast-O-Matic, is just being able to use the keyboard. And I'm like, where is this feature? So.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah

David Krohse: Everything. Everything has its pros and cons.

Jacques Hopkins: Heavy debate between Loom and Screencast-O-Matic most people out there prefer Loom, but I'm still a Screencast-O-Matic guy for recording, recording my screen. I'm a big fan. I use it literally every day. Like I'm constantly making video instructions for my contractors and recording videos for YouTube or in courses, and I've tried Loom and I just, I'm a Screencast-O-Matic guy.

David Krohse: Yeah. Stick with it.

Jacques Hopkins: All right, David. Well, well, let's go ahead and jump into this conversation with Angela Fehr. I came away super impressed here. She just a little preview. She has recently hit 10,000 students for her watercolor courses. She teaches people watercolor art, and so very impressive. Lot of great takeaways here from a very successful course creator. So let's go ahead and play the episode. We'll come back on the back end. So we'll go ahead and hit play on that right now.

Hi Angela, welcome to The Online Course Show.

Angela Fehr: Hi Jacques. Thanks for having me here.

Jacques Hopkins: Look, I want to start, I want to start kind of in the present and maybe work our way backwards. So to start with, why don't you come and tell us what it is that you teach and kind of the, the current state of your online courses.

Angela Fehr: Okay. Well, what I like to say is that I teach fellow watercolor lovers how to become their own favorite artists. Teaching watercolor techniques and kind of a fearless, creative mindset to developing artists. I've been doing that through online courses for I think about seven, coming up on seven years now, and we have an online community. I have 25 plus online courses. Just an amazing network of amazing artists. Watercolor people are the best people, and I'm pretty privileged to be able to teach them.

Jacques Hopkins: Nah piano people are the best people.

Angela Fehr: Actually, my daughter's a pianist. She's been playing for about 10 years and she's pretty awesome too, so I, I'll agree with you that.

Jacques Hopkins: That, no, I'm just messing with you. There's a lot of good people out there. So you have 25 courses. That's incredible. Why so many courses?

Angela Fehr: Well, I started out teaching watercolor technique to beginners. Here in my community, which I live in Northern British Columbia. When you teach in a small community, you teach the broadest audience possible. So that was kind of the way that you taught watercolor was you taught beginner techniques and everybody copied what the artists was doing.

And so for a long time I built a combination of kind of bigger courses that were more concept-based. And then I've also done shorter ones, which are more like, let's paint this subject altogether and learn technique by copying what the instructor's doing. And that makes for a lot of small little kind of chunks of, of classes.

It would be like if you were teaching piano and you said, okay, we're going to teach, learn these three songs by Elton John or something. So yeah.

Jacques Hopkins: A lot of times when I hear people have that many courses, you charge like a monthly membership and then somebody gets access to all of them. Is that how it works for you?

Angela Fehr: We started doing that last year, yes. That was definitely something that was a concern when you have that many courses, there's that overwhelm of, I don't know what to take if you're just stumbling on. So, you know, we did spend some time directing students. I had a little quiz on the first page saying, you know, where are you at? And here's a course we recommend for you.

But even better is being able to say to everybody, you get all the courses, pay this monthly rate. And so we give all the option to do both. A lot of students get a lot out of our member community, even if they already own some of the courses, because we have then the ongoing learning as well.

Jacques Hopkins: Can you ballpark for me about how many students you have?

Angela Fehr: We have a free online course that we kind of draw people in with. That's a, I have about 10,000 students enrolled in that one, and I actually just made my 10,000 course sale this month. So the community members, they come and go.

We're at about 500 of engaged community members, and then we have also this pool of students who, who paint and take a course as their lifestyle allows. With the hobby niche we recognize that I might have a student purchase a course, you know, two years in the past and life gets busy and suddenly they show up again and that's pretty neat to see.

Jacques Hopkins: 10,000?

Angela Fehr: Yes.

Jacques Hopkins: You just made your 10,000 course sale. That's unbelievable. Congratulations.

Angela Fehr: Yeah. I was on the course dashboard. I was having a meeting with my assistant, and then suddenly I looked and I was like, 10,000 exactly. So yeah, we celebrated.

Jacques Hopkins: That is, that is unbelievable. That's just incredible. All right. So you said you're on your course dashboard, which is where you learn that information. Does that mean you've been using kind of the same course platform for the, for the entire seven years?

Angela Fehr: Almost. I started out when I did my very first course, I had no idea if I had an audience or not. Basically, I felt like I was up against some very established world famous watercolor artists when it came to teaching courses.

So I want the course marketplace for that very first course, which was really helpful actually, because they had, you know, their free course on how to build a course. So I took advantage of that information. But very quickly after that first course launched in November of 2013 I realized that I wanted more control than a marketplace offered.

Those marketplaces, you know, they can, they, they're the ones who know your students' email addresses and have those, that engagement with the students, and generally their, their goal is to have as many students in there as much as possible, which means lowering the price, and I really wanted to value my courses at what I believe they were worth and be able to build relationships with my students.

I think it sounds greedy sometimes when you say, Oh, well, I wanted my students' email addresses, like we're going to spam them, but it's been very much for me about building relationship and being able to really get to the heart of why did we start painting? What do we commonly get discouraged by and be able to engage on that?

Jacques Hopkins: So which course platform is it that you moved on to?

Angela Fehr: I'm using Teachable now for posting my courses. I've been with them actually since they were about six months old, and we've had a very good trusting relationship over those years.

Jacques Hopkins: So back when they were Fedora, I believe.

Angela Fehr: That's right? Yeah.

Jacques Hopkins: Awesome. So one of the first Fedora users here, and so it's on that Teachable platform that you saw the 10000th student number come through.

Angela Fehr: Yeah.

Jacques Hopkins: All right. So let's.

Angela Fehr: We're not including things like I, you know, trying out that first course marketplace.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah.

Angela Fehr: I did dabble in, I think one other that's been, you know, it's still out there, but you never hear anything about it. I think there's still a kind of a little lingering series of lessons there that every now and then I get an email saying, you might have a commission one day soon. It's like $2 a month or something.

Jacques Hopkins: Sure. So let's, let's go ahead and go back to those early days because you mentioned it's, it was about seven years ago. So give me the idea of the time, timeframe here. What was going on in your life, in your life then, and how did you come up the idea for an online course?

Angela Fehr: It's such a, I love looking back and thinking about that actually, it's some of my favorite memories of how this all came about because it was. So sometimes, you know, as an artist you feel like you got to kick in and push for, for any little bit of recognition. It's like you're scrabbling upwards towards, you know, making it as an artist.

And I really didn't want to do that. I was a mom of three small children. I stayed at home with them. We were just starting to actually homeschool, so I'm home full time. One of our goals was always for them to have a lot of independence. So we do our school in the morning, in the afternoon. We all had our own kind of free time.

They had naps for awhile when otherwise I'd send them outdoors to get some fresh air, and that was my time and I would paint during those. Precious hours. While I was painting. I would have these moments where I recognize maybe how to articulate a technique I was using, or I'd see something wonderful the watercolor was doing, and I just felt like I had to share it with somebody.

And so I started filming little videos and putting them on YouTube. I think that would've been in 2011 and just every now and then, and those early videos, some of them are still on there. You could actually hear the kids screaming in the background as they're jumping on the trampoline. So, but my, my enthusiasm, my excitement about what I was learning, it seemed to draw people to my channel.

Even though the videos were terrible angle. It was $100 like point and click camera I was using. There wasn't really anything great about the videos themselves, but as I, I think I got an email from YouTube saying, you're encouraging me to monetize my channel, run some ads. And that first month I might've made $7 the month they made $100 I got really excited.

I mean, I was a stay at home mom. I was making no money. My time was really basically worthless. So to see that I could contribute, maybe that money could go towards, you know, taking the family out for dinner. Or maybe one day I'd make $500 in a month. And I could use that to, you know, do something actually really substantial for my family, felt like a big deal.

So as I saw my YouTube audience grow, it really made me want to be more intentional about what those viewers would see. With YouTube, you don't get to decide when they come to your channel, how much they watch, and in what order. So I really wanted, my teacher's heart said, you know, let's find a way to structure this so that people can get the most benefit out of it.

And that was when I started looking into online courses. And it was terrifying. I don't know why, but it just felt like this huge risk. Even though I, I did it with the supplies that I had, I didn't go out and buy a bunch of equipment. I just started, you know, filming those lessons. Yeah. And, and it worked.

You know, I, I didn't have that much to lose, just that invested time. That was, it was a big step, but it was totally worth it when I, when I opened up that course and started to see people signing up.

Jacques Hopkins: Now it sounds like we kind of launched in relatively the same, the same time, if it was seven years ago, once you finally put it together and launched it. How much easier do you think it is to kind of create and launch an online course today versus back in 2013?

Angela Fehr: I think it's easier and harder, probably. It's easier in that there's a lot, there's a lot more information out there. At the time, you know, I didn't even know what to search for actually the search terms to use, whereas now there's a lot of dialogue around online courses at the same time. There's so much noise now.

As soon as you start looking for the information on teaching online, you're going to be bombarded with people who want to teach you all the lingo, tell you how to set up your funnel. And I think it can be very overwhelming for a new instructor, you know, to feel like they have to do it all. And for that very first course, and I really didn't do that.

My feeling was I was going to create the course I would have wanted to find online. And so I made myself my own best customer. I didn't know that the lingo. I just looked for the most common sense way to reach people like me.

Jacques Hopkins: That's interesting. It's an interesting point to consider that there are, you know challenges that exist today that didn't exist back then because of how popular online courses have gotten. The reason I wanted to ask that question is, is I struggled, you know, the back in 2013 I spent so many wasted hours just like searching for a place to host my course. I mean, you mentioned that you pretty quickly moved over to Fedora, which is now Teachable, but you know that, that I don't think that existed in 2013.

Angela Fehr: Yeah. The first platform I chose, they might've just, yeah, I don't think they did either. The first platform I chose was a marketplace site and they were geared toward kind of an artsy crowd, and so that was why I chose them is because I knew then I had, you know, some people who would be interested and I'd been blogging for a quite a few years. My kind of started out mommy blogging in like 2008 and so I had kind of a website for my art, and so I had a few people there already, a little bit of an audience.

Maybe that was where I had my hundred loyal fans to start with, so I wasn't starting from zero. And I think nowadays a lot of people do. They build the course and then they look for the audience. And because I had the YouTube channel that was growing as I had been blogging, I had a little bit of an audience to build from, and I had an idea of what people responded to because I'd been seeing their reactions from what I shared on my blog and on YouTube.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, that's certainly one of the biggest mistakes I see, is people build the course first before the audience, and I didn't intend for when I first made my course in 2013 it took like eight months to actually get all the time together to put it together and launch it. The only good thing about all that time is I had some YouTube videos up like you.

Angela Fehr: Yup.

Jacques Hopkins: And so the only good thing is that my audience was building along the way. So I did have a small audience to be able to launch to by that point. So going back.

Angela Fehr: Just curious. Did you find yourself like having to restart your course? Like taking eight months. I know for me often I'll completely restructure something and it takes me that long and just trying to figure out the most efficient way to deliver the content.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. You're saying did like over that long period of time, did I kind of rethink the the course many times?

Angela Fehr: Yeah, I'm just curious. Did it change shape a bit?

Jacques Hopkins: Oh yeah. Well, I mean, to be honest with you, like when I first got the idea, I was like, okay, it's going to be learn piano in 30 days. That was it. And then I started putting things together and I'm like, man, I don't, I don't, I've got 21 lessons here.

I don't, I don't know that I can do anymore than that. And so, and actually piano in 30 days, I think he's actually taken, it's been, it's older than, than mine even is. So I did piano in 21 days and. Yeah. It took, it took a while to, to actually figure out the order of things and how I wanted to present things, and it certainly did.

It was dynamic over those eight, eight months, and that first version that I launched doesn't look anywhere near the, the latest version. I'm sure you could say the same as well.

Angela Fehr: Yeah, I have a course. I'm trying to think here. It would have been the fall of 2018 when I launched watercolor mastery, and it was kind of that next level watercolor course, and that one took, you know, six to eight months to build as well.

And that idea even of getting over the impostor syndrome, like, I'm going to teach a course titled watercolor mastery. And yet, you know, I feel like, I've got a long way to go and what I want to learn, but it was so interesting to see how it came together as I, as I thought about, you know, how, what makes a watercolor master different from, you know, just somebody who's just getting started in such a, such a rewarding course to teach.

And it's due for a big revamp and just to look it over and be more, I think, be braver even about delivering the content.

Jacques Hopkins: Do you remember when you realized that this was going to work like this, this online course thing for you was going to work? Do you remember what that, when that was and what happened?

Angela Fehr: I think one, one thing that stands out would have been after I switched to Teachable, and that was a risk because then I was moving away from a marketplace that had an audience. And so that was scary. So that was, I think in July of 2015 and so in January of 2016 I launched kind of my first big course on Teachable, and I made $8,000 in sales during that launch.

And it was like, Whoa, you know? That was just more than I could have ever imagined. And, and so, yeah, it felt like I could, I could see myself setting goals and I'd see them being achieved and consistently, and that's been really cool because I think we all want to build something sustainable that's meant growing slowly and yet seeing those growth targets be reached and just focusing on continuing to build slowly and create something that I don't have to burn out to maintain.

Jacques Hopkins: So let me ask you this next, I'm on your website right now and I want to ask you a few questions about the things on there. But to start with, you know, your website is angelafehr.com and am I saying your last name correctly?

Angela Fehr: Yup. That's right.

Jacques Hopkins: F E H R. Why'd you, why'd you decide to go with your name instead of instead of a new brand?

Angela Fehr: Yeah, I, well, I, that was a decision when I, when I first started my YouTube channel, because there are a lot of artists on there who have nicknames or catchy titles or you know, a channel name rather than their own name. And for me, I guess I'm a very traditional artist in that, that, you know, are traditionally artists sign their name on their paintings, and my goal was always to be a fine artist, so I wanted to just keep that consistent brand of my name, and in fact, when I had to register as a business, they said, well, you can't just register it as your name is Angela Fehr.

You have to add some kind of descriptor on the end. So I went with Angela Fehr Art. Yeah. I've always been very consistent in branding around my name and nowadays, it's actually, I'm so glad that I did that because when I, when I'm on YouTube now, the growth of YouTube, it's so big and it's still where people find me first.

Is usually through a YouTube tutorial and I, if I just taught techniques, if I just said, this is how to do this, and there was nothing of me and my personality in it, they're not going to remember my name. They're going to be like, Oh, I got a good technique on watercolor on YouTube. But because I share who I am and my own growth process, what I teach is very much tied to who I am. And so I'm really glad that I've used my name consistently throughout.

Jacques Hopkins: I do get that question a lot. It's like, Hey Jacques, I'm just getting started. Should I use my name or should I. You know, come up with some brands, so I appreciate that perspective. Now I'm at angelafehr.com right on the homepage, and I love the simplicity of what I'm seeing.

Right at the top it says, welcome. Just starting out with watercolor click here. Looking to grow your skills click here. Is that, did you design it that way so that you could easily differentiate or really your users could easily differentiate whether they need to jump into beginning training or more advanced training?

Angela Fehr: Oh yeah. It's definitely, it makes it easier for me to be very specific and targeted in what I'm sharing with them. I don't want to overwhelm new beginners because they already are overwhelmed. That's why they've come to the site and yet I want a challenge. People have been painting awhile, so it's really nice to be able to just send them directly to where they want to go.

And I spend a lot of time thinking about how to simplify, how do I make this as easy as possible so you know you can get to what you need efficiently.

Jacques Hopkins: Well, how, how do you, how do you typically make a sale? I mean, I'm guessing, I think you mentioned most of your traffic starts at YouTube and they end up on your site.

Then they probably click like whether they're a beginner or more advanced, like what, what does that entire process look like from somebody entering your world to making a sale?

Angela Fehr: Well, I have to tell you that I am an artist, so I'm not super, I'm very, I'm not super linear or structured in how I, in in keeping track of my metrics. So there's numbers out there and sometimes I remember them and sometimes I don't. So mostly I just try to be aware that it is building the relationship that brings in the customers who are going to last and stay. So I made a goal, I think it was 2016 when I decided I was going to email my audience every single week.

And most of the artists I know have mailing lists and they try to do a quarterly or a monthly newsletter, and they might hit that target. You know, they might, they might actually send something out every six months and it's like, Oh, I'm still here. I haven't disappeared. I've just been busy working on my paintings.

And so when I chose to email every week without fail, which is actually not like you'll get marketers now telling you to email even more often. So every week isn't, isn't super, super high, and nowadays, but I like emailing weekly. It's a relational thing, and I get to share a small piece of information to encourage or teach and let them know what's going on front of mind that way.

But I also get to build relationships and build that trust. And I don't sell hard with hobby niche, which is where, where I am. You don't, there's not as much urgency around it as there are maybe other, other subjects for teaching. And so I, I recognize that and I acknowledge it. So I don't feel like, you know, you have to buy this today.

No. When you're ready, when you've met, marked out that time to spend time painting, I'm here. You know, I have things that will help you. The goal is, yeah, the goal is.

Jacques Hopkins: That's quite the opposite approach of most marketers.

Angela Fehr: Oh yeah. And the goal is really, if they fall in love with watercolor, you know they're going to be doing it. They, and so that is the goal is just to encourage them so that they can freely love what they're doing and want to do more of it.

Jacques Hopkins: So you don't have any, you don't have any scarcity, anything like that? Like I can go to your website, I can buy your courses right now, or it can join your email list and you'll kind of softly pitch the courses over time. Is that a fair assessment?

Angela Fehr: Yeah, I do have like watercolor mastery is an interactive course that we do every, like we try to do it twice a year and so that when there is a bit of an urgency there, because we only do it twice a year, we have been doing. It's, it's actually been really fun to revive interest in some of my older courses cause it always feels like the new courses sell the most.

But I have all of these great courses that I want to share. So in the community we've been doing periodic, interactive walkthroughs of different courses. So actually next week we'll be doing a free watercolor bootcamp. I love the word bootcamp cause it sounds so, you know, tough and intense and here we are with watercolor. It's a little ironic.

But we're doing a free boot camp. It's a three-day free workshop on YouTube. And then from there we'll be doing a interactive walkthrough of my learn how to paint watercolor from the heart course. And that will start in February. So, you know, we, it's really fun to go through it with students who are all going through the lessons at the same time. And with a lot of evergreen courses, you know, people don't do that. You're just kind of on your own.

Jacques Hopkins: Would you say you spend more time on the course and the teaching or on creating art yourself.

Angela Fehr: They go a little bit hand in hand right now at any rate lately, because I've been focused on this member community, we just built it in summer of last year, in June, I think was when we launched.

And so I really want to build that into something that's very sustainable and that has a core group of very committed members. And so I've been focusing my attention there and that's been really fun because we do a weekly live broadcast and it's a studio session. It's inviting them into my studio and I get to show them how I'm teaching myself to paint every day.

And so that's been personal development for me. Gives them a look I'm writing a book on painting the land, painting the landscape, but painting it kind of intuitively from your heart. That's been fun to share that progress with them as I'm painting towards that goal. So that's been a lot of fun. We will help. I will have to pull back next month and focus on teaching those beginner techniques again.

And it's always good to kind of ground yourself again in the basics. So it all kind of goes hand in hand. But I definitely feel like as a teacher, you know, I need to be more, I need to be attuned to what my students are learning. So my own personal development is a little slower that way.

Jacques Hopkins: All right. So you've mentioned YouTube several times now and I just checked your YouTube channel, you've got like almost 80,000 subscribers, so obviously have a budding channel there. Is that your only source of traffic over to your website or do you have other sources?

Angela Fehr: I have an Instagram account. I'm Angel Fehr on Instagram. So we've been working on building that. I have a Facebook page, which I've had since, I don't know forever, so that's a place also, actually, I have a Facebook group as well, which is a really fun group. I think a lot of online teachers have trouble getting activity in their group, and I do not have that problem.

When you have 10,000 members in your Facebook group and they all want to share what they're painting, it's, it's really kind of active and busy over there, and so I don't spend a lot of time there, but it is a place to check in and share what I'm up to as well. So yeah.

Jacques Hopkins: So no paid traffic at all?

Angela Fehr: I really don't spend a lot of money on ads. I and I haven't worked a lot with affiliates. Again, if it doesn't make sense to me, if I'm struggling to figure it out or just don't have time, I'm going to focus on the stuff I do know how to do. And that's just working with my existing audience and trusting that what I have out there is going to continue to grow.

So my YouTube channel, you know, the growth isn't, I don't think 80,000 sounds like a huge channel, but it's actually really good. I've been looking at some of the artists who are just getting started teaching on YouTube now, and they really struggle to get the views that I get. Actually, I don't look at subscriber numbers so much as like minutes of watch time subscriber numbers.

I don't know if they mean as much as people like to think they do because all subscribe to a channel and I never look at it. Well any of that stuff, I have my notifications turned off. I don't check in. We tend to use YouTube more like a search engine. So how your video appears in searches a lot more important.

And I have a video with a million views, so that one, you know, that one brings people to my channel a lot more than those subscriber numbers. So that's really been interesting to see how, how that works and maybe look past the numbers a little bit and I don't really pay attention to what other people are doing on YouTube.

I've really tried to stay focused on who I am and what I want to share. There are artists doing teaching art in in very indifferent ways. They do those time-lapse videos where everything happens really fast with the music in the background, and I don't really do that. I'd rather go in real time so that I can actually tell them what I'm doing and what I'm thinking as I paint.

Jacques Hopkins: As we talk, it's funny how our stories kind of mirror each other to an extent, you know, a timeframe and getting a lot of traffic from YouTube. I'm at about 60,000 subscribers. But I would agree that, you know, I think I've got two videos that are over a million views, and most of the YouTube traffic comes from just those two videos.

Angela Fehr: Oh yeah.

Jacques Hopkins: And maybe the subscribers aren't as important. So for that video that's got over a million views, I mean, that's, that's probably making you thousands of dollars a month right there.

Angela Fehr: Well.

Jacques Hopkins: What's the name of that?

Angela Fehr: Oh, actually, I turned my ads off on YouTube awhile ago.

Jacques Hopkins: No, I'm talking about in course sales from people finding you through that video.

Angela Fehr: Of course, yeah, yeah, because I don't, I really didn't want to run ads on my YouTube channel. I did turn it on again because YouTube recently had a thing where they said, you know, if your channel is not viable, we might, you know cancel it or whatever. And I'm like, okay, I think they want to make a little money off of us. So I do run ads on a few of my videos, but yeah, I mean, just that idea that, Oh, I was a beginner, and I hear this all the time.

I was, I took your tutorial on how to paint a sunflower on YouTube, and that was, you know, or I've been sharing, it's my 25th year of painting in watercolor this year. So we're doing like this big celebration and giveaways every month and stuff like that. And I've had people telling me, you know, I've been watching you since you first started painting on, on YouTube. So that's been really cool to see. Not only do they watch my videos, but they remember that they're from me. So I think that works.

Jacques Hopkins: All right. So you are not in the United States, so tell me what currency you charge your students for your online course?

Angela Fehr: I, yeah. I, I do charge in us dollars priced in both us and Canadian. 90% of my students are from the U S and I, I love my American students. I love my, well, I love my international students too. We actually have an amazing, amazing, broad spectrum of students in my courses. But yeah, it just makes sense. If 90% of my sales are coming through the U S I'm going to going to charge in U S dollars.

Jacques Hopkins: Plus it's a favorable exchange rate. I mean, I get emails from people in Australia or Canada or something like that where the exchange rate is not favorable for them and they're like, Hey, or is this U S dollars, Australian dollars or Canadian dollars? And then, you know, $500, U S dollar course is like seven or $800 in, in in other currencies, so it's more expensive for them.

How much of an advantage do you feel like being in the being in Canada, but then most of your audiences in the United States? I mean, that sounds like a big advantage.

Angela Fehr: It is. I mean, I make about, I don't know, 25% in currency exchange, which is. It's significant, and so that it feels, actually, it feels like that kind of covers the costs of running an online business can kind of be covered in that currency exchange game.

So that's kind of cool. I do actually lose a little money when I sell in Canadian dollars to my Canadian students. I have, I have my online courses priced in U S and Canadian, but because Teachable's not super well set up to handle collecting sales tax in Canada and I'm obligated to charge it. I ended up having to take that out of my cost of Canadian sales.

So it's a little bit of a manual deal and it's a headache and I'm thankful that I hired an assistant and she takes care of that for me. Now I don't have to crunch the numbers every month.

Jacques Hopkins: What do you mean you're obligated to, to charge sales tax?

Angela Fehr: In Canada we have a federal sales tax. So most provinces, it's 5% in some, it's actually up to 15 so it varies depending on the province they're in. And so I not only have to collect that or remit that to the government, that 5% of every Canadian sale, but I also have to remit it based on the province of residence of that student. It's, yeah, it's complicated. It's not fun.

Jacques Hopkins: It doesn't sound fun. It doesn't sound fun. Let's move on to something I consider fun.

Angela Fehr: Okay.

Jacques Hopkins: And that is that it's tools. The, I think the only tool you've mentioned or software is Teachable. What, what other tools are you using for your online course business that you're liking?

Angela Fehr: That's a good question. Actually, what I'm loving right now is I finally bought some decent lights for the studio they were supposed to be for running live broadcasts and so forth, but I use them all the time for painting and just to get better light in the studio here in the North.

I live in British Columbia. Most people think of Vancouver when they think of British Columbia, but you need to drive 12 hours North to get to where we are, to get to where we are. So we are far up in the North and it's pretty dark in the winters. So I'm really liking my good studio lights. Beyond that, I have two web cams.

I mean, I think they, most people recommend the Logitech C920 or whatever the number is now. So I have two of those. It's still not the best camera. I don't know. I still think there should be a better webcam out there, but I run one of those for the talking head when I'm teaching a live broadcast, and then I have one over my work surface for my painting for what I'm actually painting.

And that actually was the biggest challenge is when I first started teaching. You want to film your work surface. Most tripods are intended to shoot, you know, vertically. So my husband built me, just a pull that mounts on the ceiling and it extends downwards so I can adjust it and have my camera directly over my painting surface. And so that's been really a handy tool to have.

Jacques Hopkins: The, the similarities continue. I mean.

Angela Fehr: Oh yeah.

Jacques Hopkins: As you can imagine, an overhead camera for teaching piano is very important as well. I mean, I can kind of shift my Logitech C920 here to show you that I've got a rig set up with my overhead camera for when I'm recording, but I think, I think, you know, I've, I've definitely crossed paths with plenty of different people in different niches that want that overhead camera view, and it's funny how everybody's kind of approached it.

Angela Fehr: Yeah.

Jacques Hopkins: Approached it differently.

Angela Fehr: Well, I can show you mine if you want. Let's see. If we can just,

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't, it doesn't convert well to audio. People are just listening to this, but yeah. Oh, yours is way more professional than mine.

Angela Fehr: Yeah. So it's just, yeah, I know. He even painted it for me, and it used to be that when I would ask my husband to build something for me, he would find like the ugliest, scabbiest piece of wood in the shop, and then bill me this hideous thing. So I feel I. I fixed that because I would show all, everybody who came over, I'd be like, look at this beautiful thing my husband made for me. And after that he decided if I was going to be showing off all the stuff he built, he was gonna make it look a little nicer.

Jacques Hopkins: Very nice.

Angela Fehr: Yeah.

Jacques Hopkins: Any, any other software like online tools other than Teachable?

Angela Fehr: I, I do all my own video editing, so I've really tried to keep it simple because I just don't have time to do a lot. So I use Camtasia for my video editing. What else? I've been using Canva a lot, and as an artist, I was actually a graphic designer for a while and you know, I've grown up with Photoshop and yet somehow I just end up going and using Canva for just those simple quick, and I think that's the name of the game is just whatever makes the job go faster. So I've been working a lot with that. What else? Beyond that.

Jacques Hopkins: I want this to be a lesson in that there's a million ways to skin a cat because I'm, I'm going to show you something here. I, my credit card expired, so I'm having to go through all of my software tools that I use and update my credit card information. And this is my list of software tools that I use. There's probably 35 things on here, and you're, you've mentioned about two.

Angela Fehr: And it grows and well, and that's foolish of me because I know to get the, actually I should mention. I've been using Teachable to host my courses. But the membership community, the community side of it is a separate software. It's a separate app. And so we've been using Mighty Networks for the community side. So in order to make those two work together, you also need Zapier and what else?

Jacques Hopkins: Oh, it's all coming out now. There's all the tools.

Angela Fehr: Oh yeah, yeah. And so, my assistant handles a lot of the pieces we use convert kit for our email, and I attended the ConvertKit conference. They do a conference every year in June in Boise. That was the first time I attended in 2018 and that was the first time I'd gotten the chance to interact with other people who are doing what I was doing, teaching online, you know, up North here, there's nobody, and I've had to learn it all on my own, and I've tried to do it on the cheap, really not spending money that I didn't have.

And that's one thing I would really recommend if you're starting out teaching online. They will try, I mean, Teachable will do it too. They will try to sell you their, you know, pro membership and tell you it's your best value. But until you are making money from your course, you know, don't spend money you don't have.

So, you know, do the, I use the free part of the platform until your course is bringing in the dollars. Build it slowly and then there's much less pressure because you found out it takes a lot longer than you think to build that first course, especially if you're struggling with overwhelm and imposter syndrome and all those things.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah.

Angela Fehr: Yeah.

Jacques Hopkins: Well, let me, let me give a quick shout out to, to like live conferences and stuff and meeting other course creators because this episode is coming out on January 28th and on January 29th is the start of the ClickFunnels conference, which I will be at. So if anybody's listening to this as it comes out, you know, definitely come by and say hello if you're going to be at that conference in Nashville, Tennessee this year.

Now let's jump to something you said I really want to dig into. I don't want to take too much more of your time, but you mentioned Mighty Networks.

Angela Fehr: Yes.

Jacques Hopkins: Right? This is, this is a new thing that I've, I've heard about. The creator came on Pat Flynn's podcast recently, smart passive income.

Angela Fehr: Oh I have to listen to that.

Jacques Hopkins: And. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know much about it. It seems to be kind of an alternative to Facebook groups.

Angela Fehr: Yup.

Jacques Hopkins: So I'd love for you to share a little more information about Mighty Networks.

Angela Fehr: It was after I, after I left the ConvertKit conference that I started thinking about, you know, what direction I wanted to take my business. And you can get so much insight from attending a conference.

I really recommend it if you've been teaching online and of questions or, or needs maybe to streamline the way you're doing things 'cause I'm sure you've learned too, that the insights you get from an event like that can be really powerful. So for me, I had this vision in the fall of 2018 of the relationships I've built with my students.

They're friends of mine, you know, some of them I just feel like I know them so well, even though we've never met. And then sometimes we get to meet when I teach, cause I get to travel and teach now, which was a dream of mine, but I wanted them to know each other. And so that was really. I got started thinking about that because often hobbies, people choose hobbies because they're lonely.

They've had a change of life, and you know, maybe they are retired and they're trying to figure out what their life is going to look like now. Or maybe they've lost a spouse. And I get to connect with these people and build relationships, but they're lonely. They don't always have a close knit community that they're a part of.

And so I wanted a chance to bring them all together. And so that was really my vision for my community. I looked at a company that was going to build one for me and I realized I could not financially handle that. I was, it was a wonderful to think about getting something built, but the maintenance on the site was just, it was going to take all my profits so I couldn't go that way.

We looked at forums. I didn't want to use Facebook because I have members who of my courses that really don't want to be on Facebook, and I'm also always leery about a platform where I don't own like where I'm borrowing space basically. So I really wasn't comfortable with using Facebook groups myself.

So we tried the forums thing, but for art, which is a visual medium, it just didn't really work for my students. And so a friend of mine was using Mighty Networks for her magazine, and it's beautiful. It was very visual. It had a flow that was felt like not a huge learning curve to come from Facebook or Instagram to this, this other site, and be able to interact on there.

And so we started using mighty networks in June. They are definitely still developing the platform, but I really, I really liked the visuals there and what they offer. They offer a feature where you can host courses, part of your Mighty Networks we're not using that again because I'm in Canada and I wanted to work with multiple currencies that they didn't have that option.

So we've been still using Teachable to host my courses. I guess in my heart, I'd love to see Teachable come up with something that was really beautiful visually for a community. And if we were able to do everything on Teachable, I still would probably.

Jacques Hopkins: Okay. So you said that you're using, one of the main reasons you're using Mighty Networks over a, say, a Facebook group, is because you don't like the thought of kind of using Facebook space, but I'm very unfamiliar with Mighty Networks. Are you not using their space?

Angela Fehr: Well, I'm paying for that privilege. So it would be similar to. Well, I always like to compare it to kind of using credit cards, right? Every business you go into accepts credit cards, they pay for the service of having that, that credit card processor there. And so you can have the ability to, you know, I'm, I'm basically renting, renting a space on Mighty Networks and they give me the, the technical stuff and I get to manage the rest.

Jacques Hopkins: Okay. Very cool. All right, Angela, just a couple more questions for you before we get outta here. What advice do you have for somebody that is just starting out in online courses?

Angela Fehr: I think it's the same advice I would give someone who is just starting to paint, because any, any time you take on a big new venture, it can be really overwhelming.

Don't feel like you need to do it all at once. One thing that I wish I realize sooner was there will always felt like there was this underlying urgency. As I started to build courses, I just felt like I had to get it all done today and then the next day, you know, same feeling. I got to get it done today.

You will. You can't do it all perfectly and one small step at a time makes a big difference. I always say that marketing your course is like parenting and saving money. You could always do it better. There's never a point where you're like, well, I've just done everything I could do. You kind of have to make peace with always being in that process of continually growing.

Jacques Hopkins: I love that quote. I'm going to, is that your quote or is it something else?

Angela Fehr: I think I made that up. Yeah.

Jacques Hopkins: Marketing your course is like you're parenting or saving money, you can always be doing it better. I love that. All right, Angela, well look, to wrap this up, it's been, it's been an absolute pleasure to get to know you and your story a little bit. Let us know if there's anything else you want to share with the audience and where people can find your stuff online.

Angela Fehr: Yes, I am found online, as you said at angelafair.com and the learning side is learned.angelafehr.com that's where you can see all the courses that I've taught. I love sharing what I've learned in watercolor and encouraging people because you know, we're taking on these big, big tasks, whether it's mastering an artistic medium or piano, or teaching online, recognizing the value of just that steady slow investment is, is really powerful and staying encouraged during that journey. And I think we all share that in common.

Jacques Hopkins: Thanks so much, Angela.

And that's a wrap on the conversation with Angela. David, welcome back.

David Krohse: Thank you.

Jacques Hopkins: All right. So I mentioned this before we played it. One of the biggest things that stood out to me is the 10,000 students. They, I mean, we can, we can have the greatest course, we can have the greatest marketing, but it doesn't matter if we're not actually getting butts in the seats, right? And it's, and for her, it's not just, it's not just a few, like 10,000 like I, that blew me away. Like I'm, I'm about 4,000 here over the past seven years. And she's, you know, two and a half times what I'm at in terms of numbers of students, number of students. That was the most impressive thing that I took away from this interview.

David Krohse: Yeah, that's amazing. The thing I noticed, I just felt like she was so true to herself through this whole process. I felt like she just the way that she talked, she was so congruent and she didn't have to become a different person to have success with this course.

I mean, I feel like she's, she's done exactly what she wanted and what felt right to her every step of the way, and it worked and she was rewarded for her success. I just loved hearing that, that, you know, sometimes if you're out there and you're thinking about making a course, you feel like you need to like take on this guru persona or really change yourself. And I felt like she, she just had this amazing level of success without, without changing herself.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. The word I kept thinking of as I was talking to her was authentic. Like she was just so authentic.

David Krohse: Yes.

Jacques Hopkins: And like when we were talking about marketing tactics and all that, she, she admitted that she didn't have the greatest funnel or marketing or whatever, and that she doesn't, didn't completely knew what she was doing, but the thing was, she was perfectly fine with that.

And a lot of times I'll talk to people and what, whether on the podcast or off the podcast that know that their funnel isn't as good as it could be, and that stresses them out and they're like, ah, you know, I gotta learn. I got to figure out what the best funnel is. And I'm certainly like that. Like I want my funnel to be as good as possible, meaning I want it to convert as highly as possible, and she's just like, ah, screw it. Like it's good enough. And clearly it is. I mean, it's working for 10,000 students.

David Krohse: Yes. She also said that her goal, I think it was like maybe her tagline, but she wanted to instill her watchers with this fearless, creative mindset. And I love that she, she views it as she's nurturing this community. She's really inspiring people at the same time.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, it just, it just came through so much that she just wants nothing more than, than her students to succeed. And it's not all about the money. It's not all about the freedom for her, but she, she genuinely wants to help people and that's fantastic. Another thing that really jumped out to me was her mentioning actually using Mighty Networks.

Cause I, I only heard about that recently. Because somebody, I got an email from somebody, I don't remember who it was or what the context was, but they were mentioning that the creator of Mighty Networks was on Pat Flynn's podcast recently and that I should check it out. And I did check it out and I listened to it, but I just, I'm not convinced to switch over to something like that from, say, Facebook groups.

The thing that is so great about Facebook groups is that almost everybody's on Facebook, almost everybody. Not everybody. Almost everybody's already on Facebook and already using Facebook and they're already using Facebook groups, and this is just another, another group to add in there. I feel like if we added something like Mighty Networks or one of these other options that's out there. Then that's just another kind of platform that people will have to, to get on. And maybe I'm wrong there, but that's, that's my hesitation and I don't have a problem with Facebook groups. I don't know what you think about that.

David Krohse: Well, I mean, the main thing, yeah. I mean, there's another Slack would be the other one that some of these course creators, they have these whole huge, especially business to business, more business focused ones. They have Slack and I agree. Like it seems like when you go to one of these separate networks, you're catering to this like 5% of people that absolutely hate Facebook. But then you might lose 20% of people that refuse to sign in to one of these other things so.

Jacques Hopkins: Right.

David Krohse: You're, you feel like you're appeasing your, your, your crowd but the reality is that there's this vocal minority that are like, I hate Facebook. And I dunno, like I said, it could be one step forward, two steps backwards or one step forward, one step backwards. As far as the people that don't sign into the other other system.

Jacques Hopkins: It's, it's hard for me to completely give a fair assessment cause I haven't really tried anything besides Facebook groups. I'm in a lot of Facebook groups. I like them. Now I will say that there's probably a number that you reach in terms of quantity people in a group to where maybe it's not as effective.

All of the groups that I manage are in the hundreds. So the groups that I have are, I have a separate group for each level or package that people buy for my piano offering. So I have my entry package, which is a hundred dollars. Essential package is $300. And the ultimate package is $500. I separate those people out into different Facebook groups because they have different contents. So, I dunno, maybe I should've kept those the same, but they're three separate groups. It's working and they each have probably, you know, 300, 400 people in, in those groups. It's working fine. People are posting videos of their status playing. People are encouraging each other. I hesitated making those groups for so long because I didn't want it to be just more work for myself.

But I really wanted to create it so that people could interact with each other. That was the point of me creating it. It's turned out that's been, been phenomenal because people will post a video on day three and then they get a lot of encouragement. People will post a video when they're done and they're playing piano and it encourages other people, and then the other Facebook group that I have is the one for, for this brand and the online course guy brand.

This podcast it's called the online course community that's got right at 400 people, and that's a phenomenal group as well. People are coming in asking questions about their own courses. People are helping each other. I do the Facebook live every Friday Q and A 9:00 AM central, and so that's my experience with Facebook groups.

I don't have a problem with it. I really have no issues with it other than the people that say, Hey, I hate Facebook. What's the other option? And like you said, that's like the 5% of people, whereas you're probably, you probably miss a lot more people if you are on a different platform.

David Krohse: Yeah. That's what it seems like to me.

Jacques Hopkins: Alright David. Any other takeaways from this conversation with Angela?

David Krohse: Well, I got the sense that she didn't really consider herself a true expert when she started, so a little bit more like Nate's story with the microgreens. I think she said that when she first made her first video she just truly like saw something wonderful that watercolor was doing and felt like she needed to share it.

And so, you know, for somebody out there that's there, like I don't know if I can make an entire course or they're nervous about making the entire course, just whatever you know that somebody else might want to know. Just start by making that first video where you share something that you found joy in or some secret that you know and just let that be your starting point and see, see if people respond to it.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. So you don't need to be an expert to have a successful online course on that topic. And that's, that's, that's something I'm definitely passionate about. In fact, I, I got. I applied to speak at the ClickFunnels conference this year. I'm not speaking at it, at least as far as I know. And they, they wanted to know what the topic would be and I was thinking about it, thinking about it, and that's, that's basically the topic I submitted.

Like, look, I wanna I want to share the message that you do not need to be an expert in order to succeed here because I am not, I never was in my past and I'm not today a piano expert. I wouldn't consider my, that myself that at all. Now today, I bet Angela's better at watercolor than I am at piano, you know, she, she's probably mastering her craft more quickly as the days go on because I'm, I'm more focused now on, you know, mastering the craft of online courses rather than piano.

But there's so many people I talk to that aren't necessarily masters or experts at this. They just, they know some things, they know some tricks, and they're passionate about helping spread this message. And that's usually all it takes. And then once you have that, it's a matter of some hard work to get it done.

David Krohse: I mean, anybody that's enjoying my story, it's like I'm not an expert at online courses, but I'm, I'm learning as they are. And I mean, just making the online course again, it's like by do make an online course. I started making more videos. I started making a bunch of more visit videos for my chiropractic office and it's a good news, bad news thing, but my office is like so busy right now.

We've got people calling in every which way. And I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I started making a course, got more comfortable with video is definitely, it's just helped me grow as a person and it's improving multiple areas of my life, so highly encourage it.

Jacques Hopkins: That's, yeah. I've been seeing some of the videos you've been putting out there for your chiropractic office and it's, it's fantastic. You can tell you're getting more and more comfortable on camera and just with the whole marketing thing.

David Krohse: Yeah. Definitely.

Jacques Hopkins: All right, David. Well, I think that's gonna put a button on this episode. I appreciate you joining me for another one. I appreciate everyone out there listening to this. Let me go ahead and pitch a couple of things. Tell everybody out there how I can help them. Let's, I want to start with this Facebook group that we kind of mentioned in the Facebook lives that I've been doing in the Facebook group.

So if you're not a part of the online course community, definitely check that out. David's there. I'm there and I'll tell you what. When somebody makes a post in that Facebook group, David, I feel like you're always like commenting within the first like two minutes it's in there.

David Krohse: Dude, I use Facebook too much. That's the downside to Facebook. That's what they're talking about.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, true story there. But if you want to post something in there and get a response from David within two minutes and get a response from me within like 24 hours then.

David Krohse: Nice.

Jacques Hopkins: You can do that. Just head over to theonlinecourseguy.com and right at the top you can click on community. Or if you're on Facebook already, like David probably is right now, just search for the online course community there and you will find us. It's a great group. And another advantage to joining that group is I go live in that group every Friday morning and answer your questions.

It's totally free. It's 9:00 AM Central time, so that's 10:00 AM in Eastern and I guess if you're out on the West coast, that's 7:00 AM and then in Europe, you will likely still be awakened in the afternoon. If you're in Australia, you're going to have to stay up pretty late for that, but that's every Friday.

And guys, if this is your first time listening to the podcast, welcome, welcome to The Online Course Show and I'd invite you to listen to as far as the next episode 89 that's our online courses 101 episode. So check that out, episode 89. And I have an online course on how to succeed with online courses.

It's called the online course accelerator, and it is free to find out more about that. Go to theonlinecourseguy.com and click on online course accelerator at the top.

It's been a pleasure. Thanks again. We'll talk next week.