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This week we’re hearing from Matt Santry, who is all about helping musicians earn more consistent income. While he’s a relative newcomer to the online course world, I think there’s plenty to learn from his story so far! Also, David turned the tables on me during today’s episode by asking me some questions about my life as an online course creator that I haven’t really shared before.

“I had an epiphany – the mini-training I was doing was essentially giving away my course.”

Matt Santry

Matt provided some great food for thought, including how my own resources have made a difference in his online course journey. Needless to say, hearing that made my day!

In This Episode, We Talked About:

  • (1:44) Questions that David’s been thinking about for the show for a while
  • (2:54) My best and worst moments as an online course creator (so far!)
  • (7:44) The biggest obstacle I’ve had to overcome with my online course business so far and how I moved forward
  • (15:39) My favorite benefits of being my own boss
  • (18:30) Why this interview is different from some others
  • (21:01) How Matt’s online course journey began
  • (27:38) The epiphany that changed everything
  • (33:53) Where Matt is focusing as his course grows
  • (34:53) The “why” behind what he’s doing
  • (36:18) Favorite tools
  • (39:42) Where Matt’s trying to grow traffic
  • (40:55) His advice for discouraged course creators
  • (42.32) Where to find Matt online
  • (43:03) Our thoughts on Matt’s journey
  • (46:39) Doing a “free+shipping” book funnel
  • (48:43) Does David want to try what’s worked for Matt?
  • (49:59) Wrapping up today’s episode

We covered a lot of ground today, so I hope you’ll drop me a line and let me know your favorite part of the conversation!!

Jacques Hopkins: Episode 121 is brought to you by Deadline Funnel. I had the creator of Deadline Funnel on the podcast back in episode number 96 and it was truly a pleasure to get to know Jack Born a little bit more and hear his take on evergreen funnels and why they're so effective, the psychology behind them, and why they're actually very ethical to use if done the right way. So jump back to episode 96 and if you're not using Deadline Funnel yet, and you want a nice long, trial of it. Free trial for just listeners of this podcast and head over to That's for online course guy.

Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course and they're making a living doing it. But not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way, and I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses.

Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins, and this is The Online Course Show.

And off we go. Welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. This is the online course show. I am your host, Jacques Hopkins, and here with me is our cohost, David Krohse.

David Krohse: What's up!

Jacques Hopkins: And we're excited to dive into all things online courses with you today. David, welcome to episode 121.

David Krohse: Thank you.

Jacques Hopkins: We have a fun interview to share with the audience here in just a little bit with a guy named Matt Santry. I'll tell you guys more, a little bit more about Matt in a little bit, but I think what we want to do here is have you asked me a couple of questions. Is that right, David?

David Krohse: That's exactly right. Yep. I've been harassing you for a little while right?

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. You, you're big on stories and I appreciate that and you've, you've sent me some suggestions lately on some, some additional questions that maybe I could ask my podcast guest to try to get some more, more stories and more emotion out of them. I think that that would make for better episodes. I mean, you, you're a podcast listener, you, before you were ever, you know, cohost here, there was over a hundred episodes and you listen to a lot of those. And so sometimes you'll listen to the interview and be like, man, I wish Jacques could ask that question.

I wish I could have gotten more emotion and stories out of that person. And so I do want to be doing more of that, but I think for now, Hey, let's, let's let the audience kind of taste some of those questions, suggestions that you've had, and you can test them on me if that sounds good.

David Krohse: All right, that sounds great.

Yeah, I mean, I love it when I actually like smile or laugh out loud, or just kind of feel the roller coaster of owning the online course business. And also, you know, I listened to these, I'm like, I want ones that I want to share with my wife. So yeah, I'm excited for these questions. So Jacques, your first question today is what, tell me the story of the single best day in your online course business.

Jacques Hopkins: All right, so I've been thinking about this today. A single best day in my online course business. A couple of things came to mind. I hope that's okay. First one was, I remember the specific moment where I'm, I made four figures in a month in revenue, so $1,000 a month in revenue, and it was late in 2014 so I started piano in 21 days, early 2013.

And this was, this was late in 2014 I was actually at a friend of mine's bachelor party, and it was, it was a friend from high school. I was at the bachelor party. So I wasn't with my wife. We had, we didn't have kids yet. And I remember, I mean, every course sale at the time was like a huge deal, right? I, I wasn't, I wasn't making a lot of course sales at the time.

The business, the course was still very much in its infancy. So I was selling like one maybe two courses in a whole month, which you know, today I sell two, three, four, five, six courses a day. But I remember it was, it was toward the end of the month. It was probably August or September of 2014 and I got a notification for a sale and it was, I was like, man, that's probably three or four this month. And I remember I went and checked my PayPal account. I was doing everything through PayPal at the time, and now I do it through ClickFunnels and Stripe, and I checked and it was just over a thousand dollars for that particular month. And it was a, it was a, it was an amazing feeling.

And I remember taking a screenshot of my phone at that time and sending that picture to my wife cause she knew how badly like I wanted it to make it work, replace my full time income. I sent that over to her. I was like, guess what, babe? Four figure month. And she's like, wow, so proud of you. So that was a really cool day. You've probably never heard me tell that story.

David Krohse: No, I haven't. That's awesome. I can imagine it. And it's funny that you were there at the bachelor party and everybody else's probably focused on whatever you guys are doing and you're over there like this is amazing.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. Between beer pong shots probably, I think, I think I may have misspoken just said something about a four figure day, but this was a four figure month, not a four figure day. Four figure days are pretty regular these days. And then also, you know, as I was thinking about is like one of my first days, well after, after I quit my job. So once I, once I finally got to the point where, where I could, where I was, where I quit my job, and then for eight years, I would go into work on Monday and work all day and then, and then I would go into work on Tuesday and work all day and it'd be working for somebody else for this other company and doing this engineering work or project management work. And that, that very first Monday when I didn't have to go into work and I went into my home office and I sat down that Monday morning. It's like, wow, for the first time ever, like I call the shots. I am in charge of it. Whatever I do over the next eight or nine hours, whatever I do over the next 40 hours throughout this week, whatever I do for this entire month, whatever I do for this entire year, like no, there's nobody to answer to.

It's completely up to me what direction I take this thing, and that would probably scare a lot of people, but for me it was very liberating and to just be able to sit down for the first time and and have what seemed like an an unlimited amount of time because up until that point, I would just work on my online course business at night or on the weekends whenever I could squeeze out some time and for the first time I had an amazing amount of time and that's, you know, that that's a big contributor to what eventually made it successful is I was able to actually spend time on it and focus on it.

David Krohse: That sounds amazing. So in in that moment, like in that first month, what was it really stressful for you that you had to like ramp up super rapidly or overall you felt like you were able to, to just relax a bit?

Jacques Hopkins: No, there was, there was certainly stress because, you know, I've, I've told my story before, but I didn't quit my job cause I had made it. I had quit my job because I saw that this was possible and I needed more time to make it work. I was making about a thousand dollars a month. We had a six month old daughter. My wife had already quit her job. So you know, the fact that we'd like paid off our mortgage and had a good bit of savings really to live very frugally for a year in case it didn't work, is the reason that I quit my job.

So there was pressure on me to make it work. So there were certainly a lot of stress involved in growing that thousand dollars a month to a level that could to meet or exceed the income I was making. So there was definitely a combination of, of just excitement and of the possibility, but also stress and pressure to actually make it work.

David Krohse: Yeah. That's awesome. All right, well, question number two. If you look back at your course career, what was the biggest obstacle and how did you overcome it?

Jacques Hopkins: So once again, a couple of things come to mind. I'll, I'll spend more time on one than the other. The first thing that came to mind was like my initial launch, because at the time when I launched in 2013 all my experience with hearing about launches and online course success was on podcasts and things where they would only have guests on that were just like crazy successful.

So I just assumed that when I launched mine would be crazy as, successful too. And I launched one day in, in late 2013 and I didn't make a sale that day and it was very demoralizing because I had spent all this time and effort and energy launching the course. I didn't make a sale and so I went to bed that night and woke up the next morning and it's like, okay, well maybe, you know, I made a sale while while I was sleeping. That's what everybody talks about, right? Making money while you sleep, and I woke up that next morning, check my phone. I had still hadn't made a sale. That was definitely like somewhat of a freak out moment.

Then it's like, okay, am I all this time I've spent, it's like, okay. is it is a different business model going to work? But you know, I ended up making a sale like mid morning that that morning and that was my very first sale and that that gave me the confidence I needed to to make the second sale and the third sale and so on.

But what really, what really came to mind as I was thinking harder about this question was that that, a time during that first year where I had quit my job. So I quit my job. You know, last day of work was basically December 31st of 2015. So it was a fresh start to the new year. Started working on piano in 21 days full time in 2016. And I, we basically had that entire year to make things work. I definitely had some fun. We spent three months in in France that summer. Me and my wife and I guess my oldest daughter was about 10 months old at that time when we went over there. That was a lot of fun, but I didn't get to work a ton while we were over there.

So I'm look up, it's like eight months, eight months, nine, and I hadn't really grown that thousand dollars a month to too terribly much. And I'm sitting in the living room, and my daughter comes to me with this book that she wants me to read. And I look at the cover and let me, let me preface this by saying that a rag on my wife a little bit, when she told me that she was pregnant with our first daughter, she literally sent me a snap on Snapchat.

Right? So she, she sent me a picture of the, like the pregnancy tests showing that she was pregnant on Snapchat. And I give her a hard time because like that picture has gone like there, you know, that's the thing about Snapchat, it goes away. And so we weren't even together. And that's how she told me she was pregnant and we actually struggled for a couple of years.

So it was a really, really, really big deal for the first one. So that day in 2016 late 2016 I'm sitting on my couch and my daughter brings me this book and I started looking at it and she sits in my lap and the book is called Little Miss Big Sis, and it's read like a couple of pages. And it was about being a big sister. And I looked at my wife and I was like, start tearing up.

David Krohse: Oh my God.

Jacques Hopkins: I'm like, are you serious? Like you're pregnant? And so it wasn't near as difficult the second time. So I was just, I wasn't expecting it at all. And so at first I'm like super happy. And then I'm like, Oh wait, like. I have to go back to work. Like that's, that's what I, that was my other, like initially for the first couple of seconds I was, I was really excited and then it just hit me like I've got to go back to work. I got to go get a job.

And I didn't want to go back to the same job. But I literally went on a couple of job interviews. I started looking around what would be some good companies to work for because, cause this was very real. It was, it was toward the end of the time that we gave ourselves and now there was even more pressure because my wife was pregnant.

We were going to have an even bigger family and we need, we, we're gonna need a bigger house. We were gonna need a bigger car. So there was additional expenses that we were going to need. And so I started, started going on a couple of job interviews, but that's right about the time that things, things started working. I mean, late like November, December of 2016 and then January, 2017 that's where everything just exploded for piano in 21 days. And it worked out.

David Krohse: The biggest thing that caused it to explode was a different, was it the getting a PLF funnel in place, or was it a certain YouTube video took off? I remember you did some like kinda borderline, not suggested things on Reddit or something, but what was that one biggest thing? What was the biggest needle mover?

Jacques Hopkins: Man, there's, there's three things here that all that all happened about the same time. The biggest thing is just really having a dialed in funnel, and so I implemented Deadline Funnel in November of 2016. I look back today to see when I signed up, it was, it was November of 2016 in fact, my Deadline Funnel campaign that I have running even to this day in 2020 is called DF 11 15 16, cause I set up that initial one back in November of 2016 and it's just been running ever since. I couldn't believe it's been that long. But having a fully dialed in evergreen funnel, using an amazing software like Deadline Funnel was a huge deal in, in making this work out.

That's also around the time I started doing ad words as well, so I knew Google ad words. It's just Google Ads now. I knew that my, my system worked. Piano in 21 days worked. People that would go through it we're very happy. There's success stories. It was just a matter of of really getting it in front of more people. And so I signed up for an AdWords course on Udemy at the time in August of 2016 and I started implementing some things myself because I couldn't afford it to pay somebody to do it so I bought like a $10 course, which was amazing course at the time. And I started implementing some Google ads and really paying for traffic for the first time and started to get a little bit of results. And, and then I ended up outsourcing my Google Ads to that company who made that course right at the end of of 2016 and leading into January of 2017 so starting to pay for a little bit of traffic.

And then the third thing that I did right around that same time was, was add in additional packages that people could buy. And specifically a 497 package. So up until that time when you wanted to buy piano in 21 days, there was only one option. It was the piano in 21 days course to, you pay 297 or you could pay six monthly payments of $57. While at that time, I added an a more expensive option for 497, which included additional bonuses in a less expensive option at 97 which was just my workbook.

And so I look back in my first sale for $497 was November 4th of 2016 and that was an incredible experience just right there in and of itself. You always sell things at 297 you get that first sale at 497 it's like, wow, somebody that, I don't know, pay me $500 through the internet. That was pretty cool.

So that funnel thing was definitely like the biggest needle mover, but, but there's certainly got to certainly give credit to the, to the advertising there and having a more expensive option for people to buy as well. And so by January, 2017 I, I made two $22,000 in revenue in January 2017 and since then, I've never made below $20,000 in revenue.

David Krohse: Oh my gosh.

Jacques Hopkins: And so that's, I mean, that's right the time when it, when it all started working and, and I'm telling you, when she, when I found out she was pregnant with Zoe or second daughter, I was like, man, gotta go back to work and fortunately, that's not what ended up happening.

David Krohse: Oh, that's an awesome story.

All right, well, I have a feeling I know what you're going to answer this one, but the third question I thought you should be asking every guest is what is the very coolest thing that you've bought or trip that you've gotten to go on as a result of having an online course business?

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. I won't spend as much time here because you know the answer, and I've already alluded to it too, it's that it's that three month, three month stint in France back in 2016 and that's just, I've just always wanted to just go and live and experience another culture for longer than just a week or two that that normally like a job, that a normal job will allow. I love going to Europe. I love traveling and, but I hated like having to request time off and, and having to, you know, right before I go on vacation, cause I had a lot of responsibility, a responsibility in my job, like making sure that things were going to be taken care of while I was away. And then when you get back, you're just overloaded. And so once I had actually quit my job, that was a very real possibility for us. And so we, we planned out a three month stay in one small city in France and we lived over there, lived like locals, ate a lot of cheese, drink a lot of wine, ate a lot of crosissants. And it was the, for the first time in my life, I was actually able to do that and I would work, I would work three hours every day, so every day we'd go do something in the morning. My daughter was, was, you know, just shy of one year old at the time. So she definitely had like a two, three hour nap in the middle of the day. So I would work during her nap and then we'd go do something fun in the, in the afternoon and evening. And so that was, that's definitely like the coolest experience or trip that I've been able to take part in because I had an online course that was really, really cool.

David Krohse: Awesome. Well, you got to tell people the name of the town. I'm enough of a Jacques stalker that I looked it up and the pictures are amazing. So tell everybody where you're talking about. Let them know.

Jacques Hopkins: Annecy, France. A N N E C Y. It's a town of about 50,000 people. My wife and I got engaged there in 2010 and it just a, the place means so much to us. That's the name of our, we named our oldest daughter that Annecy.

So my two girls are Annecy and Zoe and we go back as often as we can. We'll be there for three weeks this June. It's a phenomenal city. There's the beautiful, clear Lake, Lake Annecy, all kinds of water, sports and things you can do. But then it's set on the French Alps as well. So there's mountains as well. So if you'd like beach, you like mountains. It's got everything. Plus it's not super, super touristy. Just love it. If it were, if it were a little closer to all my friends and family, I might actually live there full time.

So David. Those were great questions and I'm going to do my best to ask more of those questions to future guest on this show. Appreciate you doing that. I think we've spent enough time on the intro, so let's go ahead and get into our interview with Matt Santry and to to set that up, I want to tell you guys that this isn't necessarily like a normal, a normal podcast guest, right? Normally, I seek out people that are making like at least $5,000 a month from their course. You know? That's what they do full time. They probably have been doing it for two, three, four, even more years than that. Well, Matt's more on the beginner stages, and Matt's been listening to this podcast. He's taken my course on courses, and this is actually the message I got from Matt on Facebook. Probably two or three months ago, he said:

"I just want to say thank you so much for offering your training for free. You've really helped pull it all together for me. At the end of 2018 I had launched a course that helps performing musicians make a great living. I did a JV webinar and had 400 registered, about one 50 showed up, but I only sold four courses at 247 so I knew I had something, but I also knew my conversion rates stunk.

So I took digital marketers trainings and changed my marketing strategy to offer a three-part mini training. I spent $900 on Facebook ads and only generated about $800 in sales. So I got really discouraged and I just kind of dropped the whole idea of selling a course."

So let me interject real quick here in Matt's message, you know, this is kind of the reason that I do the online course show and wanted to do this online course training because if you heard some of the stories I was just telling like this wasn't easy for me. Like I struggled, I struggled for years, but I desperately wanted to make it work and I have made it work.

And so that's, that's, that's what drives me is to help people who want to get into online courses but are struggling like I was. Cause I, I know that I appreciated the people that did help me along the way and I want to be able to do that for people as well. So you can hear that, that Matt was struggling he was about to give up. He said:

"Then I found your podcast from an email from Jack Born of Deadline Funnel. I binge listened to about 30 episodes and found out about your training and went through your course and revamped my whole funnel. Then I went live with Facebook ads again this week. I've done $1,200 in sales in the last three days, and I've only spent $117 on ads. Now I can see that this is a scalable business that can be my main source of income. I can't thank you enough."

So that was a few months ago. So in this interview we got to get the update from Matt Santry and he's been making even more sales than that. Right. This was a, this was a fresh message after he had just had some success over the course of three days, but now it's been a couple of months. It's still going very, very strong for Matt. So there's the setup. Let's go ahead and play the full conversation with Matt Santry right now.

Hey Matt, welcome to The Online Course Show.

Matt Santry: Awesome to be here. Thanks for having me.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, I'm glad to have a podcast listener and somebody that's taken my course on the show and somebody that has found pretty early on online course success like yourself. So let's talk about that success a little bit. Where did this online course journey start for you and tell us about some of those wins you've been having lately.

Matt Santry: Okay. Started in 2018. I had the idea for the course. It's called the well paid musician club, and it's just based on the way I'm able to find and book high paying gigs in the private event space. So what that means is, you know, private events are typically like weddings, corporate parties in home events, you know, for celebrations, anything, you name it, they tend to pay a lot more money than your typical bar or club, restaurant, et cetera.

So through my journey of figuring out that process, I thought this would be a good course. And 2018 I, I put it together and I, I launched it on a JV webinar, and at the time I was doing digital marketing, but more specifically, I was doing Facebook ads for a company called Indie on the Move, and they're a membership website that consists of, they're a database of music venues across the country.

So anyway, I was handling their marketing and their Facebook ads, and I thought, well, this, this would cater well to their audience. So I approached them about during the webinar. So we did the webinar, we had like 400 people sign up. I was pretty stoked.

Jacques Hopkins: Sign up for the webinar, not the course, right?

Matt Santry: Yeah, yeah. We get the webinar. I was like, yeah, yeah, this is gonna be great. And at the time I was charging 247. And then there was like a $97 upsell for like one on one coaching with that. So we wound up doing four sales from that webinar, two of those off the upsell. So I thought, okay, you know, there's something here, but this conversion rate is not good.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. About 1% there, it sounds like.

Matt Santry: Yeah. So I'm like, I've got something, but it's not quite, so.

Jacques Hopkins: Now if you don't mind me jumping in here, how did you even know how to do a webinar like did you use Expert Secrets, the Expert Secrets script, or was it some other format you were going off of to try to sell via webinar?

Matt Santry: Well, I mean, I've been in the digital marketing world since about 2014 so, you know, I've had clients, I think, you know, you and I have both taken, a course from Sam ovens at some point in our careers, and, and so, I don't know specifically. I figured it would be a great idea to introduce what I had, and so I bought or, I didn't buy it. I did the trial of webinar jam. Of course it crashed in the middle of the webinar. You've lost everybody but.

Jacques Hopkins: That may have contributed to the 1% conversion rate.

Matt Santry: Possibly. Possibly. But so, yeah. So, so how I thought about doing webinar, I'm not sure. I'm sure. Somewhere along the lines, all the information in my brain. I'm not taking credit for the idea, but I don't know the source.

Jacques Hopkins: Okay, got it. All right, so tell me, tell me what the next sequence of events are after this webinar that you realize like it, it was kind of a mixed feelings, right? You made some sales, which is great at four is far, far better than zero, but you had 400 people on, or 400 people register it. So I'm sure you were expecting more than four. So what happened next?

Matt Santry: All right. So went back to the drawing board. That was right before Christmas 2018 so 2019 I signed up for digital marketer. I signed up for like there, whatever, the release packages, like the $300 a month thing, cause they were, they were doing a free trial.

So I was like, okay, I'm going to learn as much as I can because my conversion rate is not good enough to take to advertising. So let me, let me learn. So I went through that and I came out with, okay, now I have a mini training, three part mini training for my course, and now I'm ready to hit the ground running, fire up the Facebook ads, and I did two more sales. Okay. Broke even on it.

So essentially I lost money cause I'm still paying for my services. Like Kajabi. Things like that. So I was really just like, I don't know where to go from here. So I, I, that was like the spring and I figured, I, I guess, you know, I just don't know what to do. I'm going to put this down for right now because I'm spending entirely too much of my time and energy on this project. Not seeing, yeah, any income from it.

Then it was the end of the summer, like around August, 2019. I've got an email from Jack Born, Deadline Funnel, about a podcast he was on. There's podcasts about online courses. I'm like, check this out. So that's how I found you. That summer I was training for a race, so I was doing a lot of running perfect for my runs to listen to the podcast.

So I was binge listening to the online course guy and I was like, there's so much stuff in here that makes sense. Let me check this out. And you were offering the course for free, or maybe it was even like a seven day trial at that point, but I got in for free and then it became just get Expert Secrets in and you're in.

So I've, I've got the audio version of Expert Secrets again, you know, doing a lot of running, listen to that like three times. and I had an epiphany. The mini training that I was doing was like giving away essentially my course. And so what was happening was I was getting a lot of great feedback. This is really helpful stuff. This is really valuable. Thank you so much. I'm just going to take this and run with it and you know, I don't need to buy anything from you. You know, you just told me what to do.

And at that point I, I just, I'm like, I'm going to follow this to the tee. I'm going to follow Russell Brunson's script. I'm going to just do everything he says, and you have it, you know, in your course as well. And, and you show people how to do the same thing and what you did with piano in 21 days. So I'm like, I'm, you know, I'm a creative person. I'm a musician and artist. I'm not going to get creative with this. I'm just going to do the thing I was going to do what he says. And man that changed everything.

Jacques Hopkins: Awesome. Let's talk about that epiphany a little bit. Cause you were saying that it was because you were, you're essentially giving them what was inside the course and so they no longer needed the course. And I've heard it described this way before. If you, if you, if they, if somebody has an itch and you give them what they need to scratch that itch. Well, then they don't have that itch anymore, right? So when I first read Dot Com Secrets years ago, and that's, that's before you even knew what ClickFunnels was, and that's before I had really made piano in 21 days super profitable. I was still trying out a bunch of things. You know, one thing that really appealed to me was the, the, the free book funnel, right?
The free plus shipping book funnel is like, I, you know, I could do this. I can turn my piano content into a book and and do the free plus shipping with the upsells and everything. But for me, what happened is people would buy that book and their itch would be scratched because they came looking to learn how to play piano. They need an step-by-step, A to Z system to learn how to play piano. And that's what that book was. So they would get that for 7.99 and then they would need a $300 course necessarily when they already scratch that itch for $8 and so. Sounds like you had a similar realization and went back to the drawing board from there. But that's why, you know, guys like Russell Brunson will tell you, you know, you don't want to do a lot of actual teaching inside your free material inside your webinar because you got to save that for the course. So it sounds like you had that realization and things started to turn around.

Matt Santry: Absolutely. The response was night and day. So I put together this, I will call it like half webinar because what I'm doing is I'm selling over the phone, so it's the webinar script, but what it just ends with book a call instead of the actual offer itself and the bonuses, et cetera, et cetera. So once I put the, I just, I'm like, let me just test it, 20 bucks a day, Facebook.

And it was incredible. I, I then I, I can't, I was like. There's a track. I just did $1,250 in sales in the last three days from, of course, it was not profitable at all, and that campaign, I was booking calls for less than eight bucks a piece, so it was like amazing. So that was in October of 2019 and then, you know, two weeks of that, I'm like, this is awesome. This is awesome. Even more sales.

Let me, let me double my Ad Spend and I'm glad this happened with it. I doubled my Ad Spend, Facebook rejected that new campaign, went back retroactively rejected the original campaign that had been running and doing so well, and I was like, Oh, okay, I'll just, I'll have to talk to somebody. I'll fix this. Following day, I get a notification you are banned from advertising from Facebook, Instagram. I was like, okay.

So I was, I got completely shut down. And when I look back, I think honestly it was my first rejected ad and I had been doing Facebook ads since end of 2016 so it was the first time I even got a rejected ad.

So if I looked back, I think my language was a little aggressive. I was talking about dollar amounts. I was, I was really kind of getting in in your face about it. And Facebook didn't like that, but it was incredible. I mean, the results were awesome. So, so at this point, I'm shut down. I'm freaking out. I'm like, what am I going to do?

I'm going to have to like create another Facebook account. I don't know. So it, it took about a week, but I just kept submitting for review, review, review, and finally got a human being that reviewed it and said, Oh, you know, are bad. You're, you're not banned. It just this. We didn't like this ad. So I got reinstated and then I just really went back and made sure that, you know, I read all the, the terms of the policies and the things and made sure that I was in line and you know, made, made my, my ad copy much more benign.

You know, I eventually got back, I got by, and so in February, first week of February, in the last 30 days, I've done 17 sales. I raised my course price to 497. Then there's also an option to do six payments of $97. So I'm incredibly happy with the way it's going right now.

Jacques Hopkins: So let's talk about how you're selling, right? You mentioned that you're selling on the phone calls, and you've mentioned my course, which is currently free, won't be free forever, but the online course accelerator. People can find out more information about that at but one of the things I push people to do is not to, to not be afraid of, of trying to sell an online course via a phone call.

That's something I did with piano in 21 days for over a year. I did over 500 of those calls and it was such an incredible experience for me, but I have, I have a hard time actually convincing people to do it because people are drawn to online courses because of the passive income. Make, you know, make those sales while you sleep? Why did you decide to go with the phone calls?

Matt Santry: Because of the Sam Ovens training that I took years ago and that was, and I was like, wow. I was like, like, I never thought to put it together like that. Like. Because on the phone, you know, we're trained to sell like these $6,000 packages to companies. I just didn't think about selling it just like a 297 product over the phone. Why not? I mean, well, you know, yeah, it's more of a time investment, but I, I was very confident that my conversion rate was going to be higher then doing it automated. So I was like, let me just give it a shot. And so when you had that funnel in your course, I thought that, wow, that's, that's a great idea. I never really thought to do it that way for a smaller package, you know, a smaller price tag rather. Yeah. It's great.

Jacques Hopkins: It's not a great longterm strategy. And I, I'd imagine that you don't want to do the phone calls forever, but you know, I got to a point where I was doing three, four, five of those phone calls every day, and I was, I was closing most of them and I was making a good living and everything but then my second daughter was born, so I couldn't, like I turned it off and I was like, I'll turn it back on once she, you know, a few weeks after she's born. But I never turned back on after my second daughter was born. But, but at this point, my time is far better spent elsewhere, but I, I wouldn't trade that experience. The phone calls for anything. And so that's, that's great that it's working for you now, but do you have a plan to kind of transition out of the phone calls and do it a little more automated?

Matt Santry: Absolutely. I would like to be by April or may to doing an evergreen webinar. So my plan is to do a few more live webinars. I did a live webinar in December of 2019 but again, the sales were mediocre and I don't know if now at this point, maybe it's the audiences, I did it with an audience that is centered around musicians and cover bands, and the only thing that they've and pitched was like a $7 ebook. So I'm coming at them with a $500 course.

Maybe, maybe. I dunno, I've just thought maybe it's the audience mate, or maybe I'm just not good on webinars yet. So I need to do some more live webinars first to really figure out what works and what doesn't. And so that's the next step. I'm going to start doing some live webinars or more live webinars. You know, I'd like to transition to be evergreen webinar.

Jacques Hopkins: Next I want to ask you just kind of a more general, like about your why like you, you got this idea back in 2018 for an online course. Like why, what, what, what did you envision an online course would do for you and your life?

Matt Santry: Well, I think everybody fantasizes about that passive income thing. For me, it's not another revenue stream, but something that like, I feel like I'm part of a community, you know, because when the people that join, you know, we have private Facebook group and even the phone calls. I really enjoy connecting with other artists, musicians. So my why for that is obviously another stream of revenue. But I like the community aspect. And as a solo musician, like I do most of my gigs, just me and my guitar. That gets lonely. I work from home doing digital marketing stuff that gets lonely. You know, I, I, I like connecting with the people so, so my why would be community and another source of revenue.

Jacques Hopkins: At this point I'm guessing that you're, you're not making enough from your course to call that, like your main source of income or anything, but it doesn't sound like you have a full time job either. Are you making most of your income for you as a, as a musician?

Matt Santry: Yes, but this is the first, well, one of a few months in my career that my other revenue has exceeded my income from music. So it's okay.

Jacques Hopkins: Very cool. All right. Let's talk about tools next. What, what tools are you using for your online course business?

Matt Santry: I host it in Kajabi. I use ClickFunnels for my, I guess, the landing page and the host, the video presentation. They use Unbounce for a couple of other clients, but I wound up using that for a sales page and what else do I use? Deadline funnel. I use deadline funnel. That's, that's a good point. Deadline Funnel. When I first started selling over the phone, I was, you know, doing the more aggressive thing like, okay, would you like to do PayPal or credit card? What's your credit card number? And I realized like if I'm going to automate that, I got to let you know technology, maybe do, do the work there.

And so evergreen or Deadline Funnel is a great way to, now I just say, Hey look, I'm going to send you this link. You know, the course is $1,000 okay, I'm going to send you this link right now because we had a conversation. I feel like you'd be a great fit for this. Once you open this link, you've got 24 hours to take advantage of a discount. You can now get the course for 497 so you know, if you want to sleep on it, that's cool. But here it is. Just know that after 24 hours it's going to go to the regular price, and that's how I'm closing people now. So it's not like high pressure and. If they're into it, they're going to buy. And if they don't buy in 24 hours, I know I'll never see him again. So.

Jacques Hopkins: That's a really interesting approach, Matt. I haven't heard of that. So you're, you're never, you're not taking information over the phone anymore?

Matt Santry: Nope. I was initially, but now, yeah, I'm letting Deadline Funnel do the heavy lifting for me.

Jacques Hopkins: And it's converting just as well, as far as, you know?

Matt Santry: It's still, I'm like 40%. Yeah. Approximately 40%.

Jacques Hopkins: Which from from cold traffic, that's it's pretty awesome.

All right, so why, why aren't you hosting your course in ClickFunnels? What is it about Kajabi that you like to keep your course over there?

Matt Santry: I like that you can see each student's progress, like you can see if they've completed the course, what modules they've done. It's a big thing for me, because I've only had two refund requests of like 40 some sales. But I, you know, I just want to know, like, did you even look at the course? You know, you can't do that to my knowledge in ClickFunnels, but also as a user, I've, I've taken a course in ClickFunnels and it's just not a great experience. So I'd rather just spend the extra $107 a month to pay through Kajabi that have to be a better experience for the user.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, I think I would agree that Kajabi is an overall better experience. It's just a matter of whether you're paying, you're willing to pay for yet another service or not. And ClickFunnels does have a little bit of of student tracking capability now they didn't use to, and they're, they're improving some things, but student tracking is definitely better in Kajabi. So if that's important to you, I definitely understand.

Now, but you're using ClickFunnels for, for essentially your, your funnel, it sounds like. So did you just import my, did you just import my phone funnel from inside the course?

Matt Santry: Yes. Which was awesome. And I really know, I know that I need some aesthetic work. You know. I need a logo, I need things, but I, you know, I just wanted to test it and it's been working. So now that I've got some revenue coming in, I can reinvest that back into things. So yeah.

Jacques Hopkins: I like to have, I like to diversify my traffic sources. I mean, look at, look at your situation last year when you got your ad account removed. It sounds like Facebook ads are pretty much your only traffic source at the moment. I, I'd imagine you have a plan to kind of add some traffic sources. Well, what's, what's next for you in terms of trying to generate some additional traffic streams?

Matt Santry: So other audiences, partners, when I did partner, like a JV webinar. In December that only 403 sales. I'm reaching out to more people. So that's, that's one thing. Partnering up with other audiences. Organic traffic is something that I've never really been good at. So I'm working on that now. Just, we just produced a, a really high quality tutorial, 14 minutes tutorial Provideo for performing musicians on any budget.

So we released that this week on YouTube. So, you know, working on the YouTube channel, I need to be some more content. I actually have a guy that took the course, one of the first members has offered services to do some content marketing for me, create, you know, logs and things like that. So that's exciting.

So yeah, I really need to, we working on my organic strategy because like you said, Facebook could shut me down for any given reason at any given time.

Jacques Hopkins: All right, Matt, now next, let's go here. Let's think back. Let's think back to when you were kind of about to give up on your online course and you had, you had made it, you really saw the potential there, but you just weren't really getting in results, any results, and you were pretty disappointed. What advice would you have for somebody listening to that that's maybe in a, in a similar position to where you were at that point when you were close to giving up?

Matt Santry: Read Expert Secrets three times. I guess there's something intuitive about it because I hear this advice all the time like, and it's really smart. You know, it's a survey an audience, build an audience, survey them, let them tell you what you should create. Right? I didn't do that. I scratch my own itch. I figured out something that was extremely painful for me. I was, I was playing a lot of low paying gigs. I was constantly playing, you know, it was five nights a week.

I was getting really burnt out and I was starting to hate what I did, and I figured out a way to not have to do that and play last, make more money at the end of the year. And I just figured there's gotta be other people that have gone or going through this currently. So my advice, I don't know. It's just like an intuitive thing.

If you really believe you have something, you know, don't keep banging your head against the wall. Just keep learning. Keep maybe, maybe that next, Oh, you pick up or that next podcast you listen to or that next thing could be just give you that, like epiphany and, and I could turn the whole thing around cause that's what happened for me. So.

Jacques Hopkins: It just takes, it just takes one thing. Matt, thanks so much for coming on and sharing a little bit about your story. Hopefully we'll have you on in the future and you will have, you know, 10 20 30 acts Steven even further from, from here. So thanks so much man to, to wrap this up. Let us know if there's anything else you want to share and where people can find your stuff online.

Matt Santry: Awesome. Yeah. You can find the course and then you can find me a singer songwriter brand at M A T T S A N T R Y dot com.

Jacques Hopkins: Thanks, Matt.

All right. That's a wrap on the conversation with Matt Santry. David, welcome back.

David Krohse: Thank you.

Jacques Hopkins: All right, man, so Matt has, like I said, he's been listening to the podcast. He took the course, and I'm not the only person he's been learning from clearly from the conversation, but he's, he's doing really well. He's got, you know, there's plenty more mo, more success in front of him and there's more work he's got to do, but he's doing really well. Well, what did you think of that conversation?

David Krohse: Oh man, I loved it. It was just really cool on multiple levels. I mean, it was a roller coaster ride for him. That part where he had the Facebook ads going and he was just like. All right. I'm on the rocket, like headed, headed to the moon and then like Facebook completely pulled the rug out from him and like banned him. I was like that. It was crazy.

Jacques Hopkins: That's why you can't, you cannot rely on one traffic source.

David Krohse: No.

Jacques Hopkins: You can't, cause that can happen anywhere. I mean, you can get your, you can get your YouTube channels shut down. It doesn't have to be just paid ads. They can get shut down immediately. And so I like for people to start with one traffic source, but once you really get that traffic source dialed in, let's move onto another and diversify.

David Krohse: Well. Yeah, and the Udemy, I mean, we have a lot of listeners I think that are really going strong on Udemy but I mean, I think you and I would say, and I, I see some of the feedback and some of the other Facebook groups and it's like, you know, trying to have your own thing going at some level or another makes sense for that group as well.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Now I will tell you, like I would say my biggest takeaway here is, is really how simple Matt has kept everything in terms of the level of success that he's reached so far. I mean, you look at his funnel, it's, it's so simple, right? I mean, it's basically the, the basic phone funnel that I recommend to people if they want to go that route.

And he took my advice and implemented it. He even used my, you know, exact ClickFunnels templates and it's like, you know, landing page. And then value video and then book a call and that's, you know, three pages basically. And in these obviously found success there. And then to actually take my advice to, to do the phone calls, I mean, I'm, I'm proud of him, I want to say, because a lot of people are scared of that.

And even though that's in my course as, as one path, you could take very few people as you can imagine actually do that. But Matt's done that. I know you've done that as well. It's a valuable experience.

David Krohse: Definitely, yeah. In the midst of the interview, you said that he might or he should be trying to stop doing the phone calls as soon as possible. I was thinking that because he is, his offering helps make people money. I mean, the other way to go with it is just get the social proof and actually raise his price and just continue to do to do the phone calls.

One thing we did that episode on the love languages. And I'm still just like so impressed with the one guy that sent people a bottle of Dom Perignon if they like got their first client.

And I was thinking that Matt Santry is offering, if he said, if you book, if you book one of these parties that you make over $1,000 let me know. And then he sends him like a hundred dollar bottle of whiskey. I mean, and then at that point, at the point that he has 10 people like showing their bottles of whiskey, like maybe his courses up at $1,000 or 1500 or $2,000.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. So I think, I think the key is either he needs to switch to not selling on the phone or raise his prices. Cause yes, selling on the phone works better for higher ticket items because it makes your time, it makes it worth it. Doing the actual phone calls. But yeah, I love that idea of, of actually incentivizing people to succeed with his method and then rewarding them for that.
And I want to be doing more and more things like that for sure. But that's, you know, hopefully Matt's listening to this followup cause I think that's great advice.

David Krohse: What I wanted to ask you one quick question. Like when did you, you talked about the book funnel, but where in your path did you do that actual book funnel?

Jacques Hopkins: Oh yeah, the free plus shipping funnel?

David Krohse: Yes.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, so that was, that was before, before things worked out. That was in 2016. I read Dot Com Secrets early in 2016 and you know the thing about Dot Com Secrets, you know many people listening to this know how big of a fan I am about of Expert Secrets, the book by Russell Brunson, because Expert Secrets is completely focused on how to make online courses work.

Dot Com Secrets is way more broad and general in that if you can get something for any business out of that book. And he goes over like, here's all the different kinds of funnels you could possibly make for all the different kinds of businesses. And one of the types of funnels that he suggested was free plus shipping funnel where you, where you sell a book for free and you just charge shipping, you ship it out.

And so that appealed to me as I was reading Dot Com Secrets. And it's like. Oh, it was just, I was desperately looking for a way to make piano in 21 days, work and scale and stuff. And so that's, that's what I tried. I was like, I've got this 21 day concept. Let me make a 21 day physical book and start shipping it out.

But very quickly realized that wasn't a great business model because I was selling these things for $8 basically breaking even on on that. And then people were buying my course because they felt like they had gotten what they needed out of the free book.

David Krohse: Gotcha. So after you quit your job, but before that November story. Correct?

Jacques Hopkins: Yep.

David Krohse: Gotcha.

Jacques Hopkins: That's the timeframe.

David Krohse: The other thing, let's see here. There was a part where he said that he had to override his creative artists side and just follow the formula and that one I was cracking out because that's totally my personality is to try to reinvent the wheel and just like, Oh man, I think I could do this better.

And I think that can be detrimental. I think just seeing what other people are doing and that's working, figuring out that formula and just. Follow the formula.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, there's a time and a place to do that, but there's definitely a time and a place not to do that. And so yeah, that was a good takeaway from Matt as well. I'm glad he said that. Anything else, David, that you got out of this episode?

David Krohse: I think that I might be a good candidate to copy his 24 hour link with the Deadline Funnel.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah.

David Krohse: And then the other thing, I was just cracking up. He doesn't have a logo yet. And so, you know, sometimes early in the process we get so locked in on these things and it's like, you know, ultimately it probably doesn't matter as much as we think it. I will just say that like doing a logo contest through your recommended service is like one of the most fun things that I did in the entire process. So between my wife and I, we've done like three of these logo contests. The 48 hours logo is what you recommend and it's so fun. Like I'll wake up at like five in the morning and be like, who submitted a logo?

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, it is really cool. Yeah. 48 hours logo. We'll, we'll link to that in the, in the show notes, but yeah, he doesn't even have a logo yet yet. He's found a pretty good level of success so far, and yet if you're doing phone calls, that that was a pretty cool strategy that he shared that I hadn't really thought of before because at all, all the phone calls I ever did selling piano in 21 days back in the day was I would just take their credit card information over the phone, but I could definitely see the simplicity of emailing it out, but having the, you know, having it expire, literally expire using Deadline Funnel.

So that's, that's gonna do it for this episode. Thanks for joining me here today, David, for this episode. And for all of you listening out there, thank you for joining us as well. You can find all those show notes and links from today's episode by going to and don't forget to check out the free online course accelerator. That's my course on how to succeed with courses. That's the course that Matt went through. It's free. Check it out at and click on online course accelerator at the top, and if this is your first time, make sure to jump back and listen to our online courses 101 episode back in episode 89.

Thanks again. We'll be back next week.