“Making money isn’t inherently bad: it’s all about how you use it.”
– Jacques Hopkins
I enjoyed our conversation and I think you will too! Mindset is so important and it’s definitely worth talking about.
In This Episode, We Talked About:
- (2:15) Sideline Sams, Struggling Sallies, and others who might benefit from adjusting their mindset
- (3:46) Why this topic matters for entrepreneurs + a disclaimer
- (9:29) Thinking back to the beginning of my own mindset journey
- (10:53) Busting myths about financial success
- (17:14) Comparing the value of different types of education
- (21:39) Mindsets about how people choose to spend money for fun vs. courses
- (26:02) The value of online learning for people in difficult situations
- (27:27) Shifting focus from how much something costs to how much it is worth
- (28:56) Does higher pricing improve student success rates? And do lower prices create more profit?
- (31:48) Money vs. “certificates of appreciation”
- (33:42) How to view money left on the table
- (34:46) Choosing your legacy
- (39:01) Time vs. money
- (42:12) A pet peeve of mine when it comes to actual course content
- (43:00) How to implement mindset shifts on a practical level
- (46:44) Wrapping up Part 1 of the conversation about mindset
What do you think – would you make the switch from webinar software to something simpler? Feel free to drop me a line and let me know. And make sure you tune in again next week for another more traditional episode of The Online Course Guy!
Jacques Hopkins: Hey, you out there listening to this. Are you using ClickFunnels yet? It is so easy to use and can be so powerful in your marketing, even if you have your course hosted somewhere else. Now, many of you know that I do host my courses inside of ClickFunnels as well. But it does so many other great things and I know plenty of people using ClickFunnels who still have their course hosted on teachable or Thinkific or Kajabi and so on.
If that's you, you can still use ClickFunnels for it's amazing sales funnels, and if you want all of my proven ClickFunnels templates for free, including my brand new, amazing evergreen webinar template, then sign up for a free 14 day trial of click funnels by going to the online course, guy.com. Slash click.
This episode is also brought to you by deadline funnel, which is software that allows you to set actual deadlines for your launches, whether live or evergreen. So when someone tries to click a link after your deadline passes, they can't actually get there. And that's just one part of doing deadlines ethically, which is super important.
So to get started with an extended free trial, just for my audience. Go to deadline funnel.com/oh CG, which stands for all nine core sky. Now let's get on with episode one 26 which is part one of two of a deep dive into having the right mindsets to succeed. With online courses.
Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course and they're making a living doing, but not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way, and I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses. Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins, and this is the online course show.
And off we go. Welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. This is the online course show. I'm your host, Jacques Hopkins, and here with me is our cohost David Krohse.
David Krohse: Hey there.
Jacques Hopkins: And we're excited to dive into all things online courses with you today. David, we've got kind of a different episode today. No interview, just a focus topic. What do you think about that?
David Krohse: Oh, I'm super excited about this one. I think it can be super valuable for all these course creators around the world.
Jacques Hopkins: Great. So we've done episodes like this before, but regular listeners will know that most of the time we have on a successful course creator, we get into their story, we get some inspiration and motivation. But today we're just, it's just me and you throughout this whole episode. And so people can just, you know, go run away screaming. I don't want David Crosy the whole time. Or they can sit back and really enjoy this, which I hope everyone will do. And the topic today is about mindset and kind of the. Core mindset and assumptions that people have about course creation and being, of course, creator.
So this can be people, I call them sideline Sams, right? People that don't have an online course yet. Maybe they're thinking about it, or maybe they're our friends and family that look at us from the outside right there on the sidelines. Or it could be people that already have courses that have poor mindsets about their course and other people's courses, and I call those people struggling.
Sally's. Maybe people, let's say they're making a few sales here and there, but they're not making enough for it to be their full time income. So it's those poor assumptions and poor mindsets that those people have about successful online courses. And then being able to have a successful online course that we're going over today. And this was your idea, David. So did I summarize that properly?
David Krohse: That's fairly accurate. You know, if I could, I could name this. Its causes and cures for a poverty complex. It's kind of the first portion. I mean, people get some, some messed up ideas about money and just asking for money from people. I mean, when you're a new business owner, that's a hard thing to do for a lot of people. And then also just growth limiting mindset.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, the poverty complex. That's a good way to look at it. I think one thing, one of many things that spurred this on is you got into a conversation with somebody on Facebook and in some Facebook group, not mine, some other course creation group, and you ended up tagging me in the conversation bringing me in, but somebody was saying something like, if you charge $1,000 for an online course, I don't know how you sleep at night or something like that, and the guy, he's, he's clearly had no idea.
Of of value, like if you're, if you're giving that much value or more than, why wouldn't you be able to charge $1,000 or more for a course? Right? And so you tag me, like, get in here. Za come see what's going on in this conversation. And so that's just one of many poor mindsets, poor assumptions, poverty complex that I think that we're going to dive into today.
David Krohse: Exactly. Yeah. And I wanted to share just kind of the inflection point in my career and this, again, for people new to this podcast. I'm a chiropractor, but I mean, there was a point where I realized, I looked in the mirror and I was like, you have, you have issues, and these mindset changes can create a better reality.
So. I was a couple years into practice and I had gone to this like salon. I was in a business networking group with this lady and we were supposed to support each other. So I was going to get my hair cut every five weeks by this lady. I got up to the front, it was like mid October and they said, Oh, you know, five weeks out is the week of Thanksgiving.
And my answer. I said, Oh, you know, I might want to wait. I don't know exactly what I'm going to be doing that week. And the lady said, well. You should probably schedule because we have a lot of people coming in that time of year and getting their haircut because they have family photos coming up. And I was like, Oh, okay.
Well, in that case, yeah, go ahead and put me down. And I came back to my office and same exact conversation in chiropractic. We have people come in once a month. This person came up to the front and we said, yeah, you know, your appointment would be five weeks out the week of Thanksgiving. And the person said, Oh, I'm not sure what I'm doing that week.
And my front desk person just said, all right, well, you know, feel free to give us a call when you want to get in. And I was sitting in my back office and I was like, Oh my gosh. You know, that's the lawn. They had a set of assumptions that created a better reality. So their assumptions were that they were going to be full.
Our assumption was that we had plenty of room. Their assumption was that people would prioritize their appearance, appearance over their busy lives, and in our assumption was that people won't prioritize their health. Then they did something else that I think is hugely powerful, called normalizing beneficial behavior.
And so. You know, they, they basically said all these other people are doing their family pictures and they want to look their best. And so instantly, at the time I was single, I had this really scruffy dog and I was like, Oh yeah, maybe I should do like an awkward family photo with my dog, George. But you know, if they, the thing is, if they say that statement to everybody, they create a busy future so that that positive mindset creates the reality.
And I came back to my office and I wrote out this list of assumptions that have guided our practice and they truly have brought in, you know, six figures to my office, multiple six figures, just having this positive mindset and so super excited for, for course, creators to to change mindset and truly bring in, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars more.
The one thing I do just want to say is that we're definitely not encouraging gouging or taking advantage of people. You might hear some of this and think that we're telling everybody to. Overcharge. It's like if you're charging the right amount, charged the right amount, but if you're, if you listen to this and you say, no, I should be charging more. Then that's where you raise your prices and you'll see more success as a result.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. We're, we're not going to just be talking about the mindset of not charging enough money. We'll be talking about plenty of others as well, but I'm glad you brought that up because we want to charge prices appropriate for the value or for our customers and so on.
But yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. You know, we're not just trying to go take the easy route, you know, make a quick buck and scam people. I mean, I can't tell you how many people at first glance think that piano in 21 days is a giant scam because it does sound kind of scammy until you dig in a little bit.
It sounds kind of unbelievable that you'd be able to learn piano in as short a time as piano in 21 days. So there's a lot we're going to get into in this episode. I'm glad that you gave that disclaimer though. Got that out of the way. And we, we have notes here, right? So we've got a list of some mindsets and assumptions that we feel exist out there, and we're going to go through those one by one. How do you think the best way to approach each one is as we, as we go through this?
David Krohse: Sure. I'd say that. Let's talk about the good mindset and then let's talk about the bad mindset or mindset. That a course creator might have that keep them from reaching the levels of success they could. I think we should talk about what factors in our world today or in people's minds create that bad mindset. And then the strategies to improve the mindset and then the actual implementation strategies within the course.
Jacques Hopkins: Wow. Going deep. I like it. Yeah, and it's, I'm surprised it took me and us this long to get into an episode of fully about mindset because it's so ridiculously important. And when I got started, I didn't really have the right mindset.
I just kind of got started. I didn't know what I was doing. I was scared a lot to be on camera. I didn't want people in my office where I work to know what I was doing. I was afraid people would make fun of me. So I just kept this journey as a secret instead of having a mindset of. You know that this is just really, really cool stuff.
Like because of the, the time that we live and the resources we have, I'm able to literally teach people how to play piano through the internet. That'll never actually shake hands with, we'll never actually physically exchange money, you know, it's complete stranger on the other side to get them to open up their wallet and pay me money through the internet.
And that is like the coolest thing ever. But I was so scared to tell anybody other than, you know, my wife probably, and I think I was even scared to tell my mom about him for some reason, and I probably would have found success much sooner if I didn't have. That mindset because it was kind of like, I guess it's not exactly like the poverty complex, but it was that of sorts.
It was not a good mindset to have and it wasn't the mindset of abundance and that I was absolutely going to succeed. So this is a topic that's obviously very important that I feel strongly about as well. So thanks so much, David, for setting the stage. Why don't we go ahead and jump into the first one on the list here.
David Krohse: Sure. Our first mindset is people will happily pay good money to learn new strategies to make money and for hobbies or fulfillment.
Jacques Hopkins: And so we're starting with what the good mindset is, and then we'll, we'll dive into it.
David Krohse: Correct. So one of the poor mindsets would be charging a high amount is predatory.
And you mentioned that quote from that Facebook kind of like comment feed. The exact quote was, I don't know how you sleep at night after you suckered someone out of nine 97. Or some digital product. That's the exact quote. So what do you think, why do people have that attitude?
Jacques Hopkins: Because people feel like you can learn almost anything from was free these days with YouTube and other resources. Even say a $10 book. And that if you're trying to put that same information out there and put, just put a different bow around it just to be able to charge more money that your suckering people, if you're doing that, you're scamming people when we know that that's not truly the case for me, it's all about your packaging, the way you're putting things out there.
For me, I have probably the most expensive piano course on the internet. I don't know of one that costs more than mine, and that's a decision that I made very. Early on in the process is to be toward the top, if not the top of the spectrum, because I wanted less students at a higher price, right? So if I'm going to make the same amount of money, I want less students to be able to serve them better.
So there's a lot of individual attention. That my students get. And when you're offering something like a course, there's no limit to what you can include with that. If you just have a book that you're selling or a single YouTube video, it just is what it is. But with an online course, you can package all kinds of things up with it.
So for example, my students, they can email me anytime they want. There's a . Text message line. There's a Facebook group, there's a couple of one-on-one lessons, a bonus courses and so on. And the value is just stacked on to where, yes, they're paying $497 but if they truly can learn how to play piano in a fast and fun way, for most people, that's worth a lot more than $497 so it really depends on the value that you're actually offering people.
David Krohse: Sure. Well. I think I went a little bit deeper into these specific reasons that people have these bad mindsets, but I completely agree with what you're saying there. You just kind of jumped ahead a little bit based on my notes. The first thing you know, I said, why do people have this idea that it's predatory?
I said, it's inadequate frame of reference. So number one, some course creators might be in an entire economy that has like, you know, it's just a much lower income economy. So I was thinking like Philippines, I looked up the average annual income in the Philippines, and it's like under $10,000 here in, in the United States, it's up around $50,000.
And so let's say that a Philippine Filipino person creates a course that is mainly being sold in the United States. And if they were in the United States, they would charge $10,000 for it. In their heart that would feel like they were charging people the essentially $50,000 and so, you know, I mean that's, that's the first thing is just people are in different economies and they might have trouble just realizing what it's like in that other economy.
Jacques Hopkins: Do you think there's some jealousy there though? I mean, if, if you see somebody out there charging high prices and actually actually succeeding, right. Do you think that maybe there some jealousy with that person with that Facebook comment and maybe that's the route. What's going on there is maybe he doesn't truly think it is predatory. It's just he hasn't found a way to successfully charge that amount. Maybe he is just jealous.
David Krohse: Yeah, and that's, that's one of the other ones that I met or I was gonna mention, is just each of us comes with these like sentiments that some of it has to do with our upbringing. There is this common sense in the world today that's anti wealth.
There are movies that come out that try to paint like any successful corporation is that they take take advantage of people. I guess I would say that you can kind of test this in yourself. Like let's say you're driving down the highway shock and like a, a black BMW seven 40 passes you like, is your emotion basically like wonder what they did? Kind of this negative, like who did they screw over or who did they take advantage of? Or does your mindset go like, Oh, I wonder if that's the family that their name is on the side of the hospital or it's on the side of the library.
Jacques Hopkins: Well, for me, I want to get to know that person and find out how they made their money. I don't have any feelings of that, they probably screwed somebody over. That's my mindset when I see somebody like that. Now, I'm not a big car guy, but I'm assuming that the car that you mentioned is a very expensive one, and so that's my first thought is, wow, they must be just super successful. I would like to hear their story a little bit.
I guess to be honest with you, there's another part of me that might have been like, Oh, he must be. He must've taken out a lot of debt to get a car like that, but no part of me would think that they probably run a business where they screw people over to get successful.
David Krohse: Yeah. Well, I think a lot of people between, between their parents' attitudes and just watching movies and and seeing different things online, a lot of people do struggle with that, and I'll be honest, I mean, there are times if that exact situation, that's probably, I think it's $120,000 car, but.
I think it's just the kind of, one of the flagship cars have like a corporate Titan, so to speak. Deep down there's this little part of me that's like, huh. Or just kinda kind of has a negative emotion and that's something I've tried to overcome. The other thing that would make it feel like charging a high amount as predatory is somebody's current financial situation.
So if someone is currently poor, then you can feel like, you know, you would see these, the prices of the course and say, I can't afford that. Therefore, the person selling it is predatory. But that's just wrong. I mean, like, you know, okay. If you want to be able to afford that course, then find a way, get a part time job and you know, it should be attainable.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. It's a matter of how much it actually means to you and as course creators, we've got to understand that too. And you know, that's why I offer a payment plan, you know, $497 or six monthly payments of $97 trying to be a little more affordable there. But that's still not affordable to everybody, but I've got to figure out what price works the best for the most amount of people at the end of the day.
David Krohse: So in terms of shifting the mindset that are charging a high amount, it's predatory. I said the top thing is getting a larger frame of reference. Just really looking at what the alternatives in the real world cost. I mentioned in that Facebook comment feed that college is a comparison, and there was actually a lady that really wanted to fight with me about comparing the cost of a course, a thousand dollar course to college and just acted like I was a total idiot. What is your take on that?
Jacques Hopkins: Well, I would say you're not a total idiot. Maybe just a little bit. I'm just kidding. Obviously. I'm just kidding. I think it's a fair comparison because what we're talking about is education. At the end of the day, we're talking about education. Now, one online course is not going to replace an entire college education, but you're learning something through some system, and I would say that if I had to go back and do it over again, I wouldn't actually go to college.
I would hope if we could go back and be an 18 year old again and know everything that I know now. Well, I would start with some sort of online course. Most likely I would try to put value out there to the world, whether piano or something else, and I would build a business. That way because I got a degree in electrical engineering and I even went and got a master's.
I got an MBA and I really hardly use any of that and I spent way too much money on all of that as well. When most of the things that I learned and now apply in my quote unquote work, I learned on my own through things like online courses, right? Books, online courses and so on. I think it's a very fair comparison.
David Krohse: I love your answer to that, but tell me specifically what, what couple of books and what couple of courses would you take if you are your 18 year old self?
Jacques Hopkins: Okay. So if I was dropped into 2020 as an 18 year old, I would subscribe to the online core show, obviously. But if we're just talking about my stuff, I think experts secrets is probably what I would pick up first by Russell Brunson.
I would start getting into Russell Brunson's material. I mean, just going to his conference a couple months ago made me even more of a Russell Brunson fan boy than I already was. He just seems like such a genuine guy and he's unbelievable at marketing and storytelling as well. So I would learn as much as I could from him reading expert secrets.
He's got traffic secrets about to come out. I would read.com secrets and go through some of his courses as well. So I would definitely go through those. I would look at Dan Henry stuff. I think Dan Henry's got some really good courses out there. Sam Evans has some good stuff out there too. A lot of people that you know about that have courses, you know about them because their courses are great in general.
I would say that. So a lot of you probably have heard of those names that I just mentioned. So those are the places I would start. And then of course, you know there's StoryBrand by Donald Miller. You've heard me talk about him in that book on the podcast before. I think he's got a course as well. Donald Miller is a great person to follow as well. So those are just a few examples and I would just start crafting my own education.
David Krohse: Let me ask you this, because you just mentioned a couple. So I think Dan Henry is his course currently around $10,000 and then Sam ovens, maybe 6,000 so. For that guy that said that, how can you sleep at night? He would look at those guys and be like, Oh man, they're going to end up in hell for sure. If you were talking to your 18 year old self, what would you say about spending 10,000 or spending 6,000 compared to a college education?
Jacques Hopkins: That's what we're doing right now. We're comparing it to a college education because. To put it plain and simply a college education purpose is to help you land a full time job and why do you want to land a full time job?
It's so that you can have money to pay the bills, hopefully have fun, save for retirement and all that. That's why I wanted a job. And so I'm sure it's why most people want a job out there, but what if you could go down a path that was less expensive, easier. And more fun and get a better job at the end.
That's what we're talking about here. So let's say that instead of a four year education for anywhere from, what is it now like, I don't know, $20,000 to $120,000 maybe even more. I just said, okay, I'm going to invest in Dan Henry's $10,000 course. You can legitimately make six figure, even a seven figure business just following the material in that $10,000 course.
If you go through that four year education, and let's be honest, people are going through it in like five or six years now. You end up with a lot of debt and a lot of cases, and then like what a $40,000 a year job, something like that. So it's just, I mean, I like the college experience or I like people to go to college for the social experience.
That was a, that was a great experience for me and for a lot of people. But when you compare the education itself to other options out there, like a very expensive online course even, it just seems.
David Krohse: Let's talk about hobbies and elective purchases. So you have a piano course at four 97 this was so perfect. On Monday of this week, this lady came in, she somewhere in our conversation as I was talking to her and adjusting her, she mentioned something about her purses being her thing, and I said, Oh, you know, you really like the high end purses? And she said, Oh yeah, coach Chanel, Givenchy Louis Baton. And I was like, what's your most expensive one? And she was like, Oh, I don't want to tell you. She's like, my husband got mad. So guess how much are in most expensive purse was?
Jacques Hopkins: Okay. So I have a little bit of frame of reference here to be honest with you, because Tony Robbins did this experiment very similar to what you're saying a couple of months ago at the ClickFunnels conference where he asked the audience, he said, does anybody have a. What's the brand? Louis Vuitton. He asked if anybody had a Louis Vuitton purse and worn a woman holds it up, and I think she said it was like $3,200 so that's going to be my guess.
David Krohse: All right. Higher up than that.
Jacques Hopkins: Five thousand.
David Krohse: Five thousand yeah, and it was so funny because she was like, well, number one, this lady, she bought like a Chinese food restaurant when she was like 45 she has told me about the tears that she cried.
And when she told me that she was a little bit embarrassed to say the number, and I was like, you know, I'm like, you have told me about the tiers. You have earned it. You deserve it. Never apologize. Unless she was like, yeah, my husband like gave me a hard time, but she was like, he goes on these golf trips.
She said he probably spends three or $4,000 on each of these golf trips. He goes on. So, I mean, each of us have things, if you, if you make a decent amount of money, you have things that you're willing to spend money on. Personally, I have a bike now that it's starting. Price was like $7,000 I did buy it used for like 2300 I've spent $3,200 on a bicycle.
And if somebody gave me a hard time, I'm, or if my wife was to give me a hard time, which she really doesn't, I would be like, you know, there are people whose hobbies are racing cars, you know? It's like, I don't know. And then I have a friend who his daughter does like dressage horse shows. He has a $75,000 horse, and that's for his, I think now, 14 year old daughter. So, I mean, I don't know. Do you, do you have any other frame of reference from a hobby perspective?
Jacques Hopkins: Well, to go along with what Tony Robbins ended up saying to her was like, why? So why. Would you spend this much on a purse and for her? She said, well, it's something that I always wanted and I knew that when I would be able to afford something like this, that's when I knew that I could call myself successful.
So for her, there was a deeper meaning behind just the purse, which probably costs what, $20 to put together. I have no idea. And so she probably doesn't spend extravagantly like that in every single facet of her life. It was just for her, it was a purse. Right? So for me, typically I like to spend money on travel and experiences, and I'll spend a good amount of money on that.
And some people look at my cars and say. Why don't you have a new car? Well, my two cars in my driveway right now for me and for my wife, one's a 2007 one's a 2008 so my newest car is 12 years old, and just a couple of months ago, I actually upgraded to the Oh seven from the 2003 pickup truck. So cars are not super important to me.
I mentioned earlier that I didn't know what that BMW was that you said already. So I don't worry about spending money on cars, but I am going to get the nicest vacation that I can. I'm going to get a nice place to stay and so on, and other areas as well where I don't spend as much. So it's just a matter of priority I think.
Now you mentioned your question, I don't know if I directly answered it because you're asking about hobbies specifically, so maybe I'm not quite understanding, but can you kind of rephrase the question or reset the question?
David Krohse: No, I think that you answered it. I mean, the point, the point is that. If somebody is sitting in the Philippines and they're like $10,000 for a course is like, to them, that would feel like $5,000 essentially we're saying, and what I'm trying to say here is that in the United States, if that's where you're trying to sell your course to $1,000 does not sound like very much to the average American.
So just given that frame of reference. In terms of other alternatives and just looking like if somebody doesn't do this course, what do things cost? I loved an Angela fairs episode that was episode one 16 she mentioned that people join her painting courses sometimes after they're mourning the loss of a spouse or just in these like darker places, and I was thinking like her course in a way is an alternative to going for counseling, paying for anti-depression medicines, and I'm like, that is so valuable. I love that idea that, that she's. She's providing this healing environment, and again, that doesn't, that doesn't mean that you should take advantage of these people financially, but that's huge value that she mentioned.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. I've got a testimonial where the girl talked about how she was grieving after it was either her husband or her father had passed away and how she found peace with learning how to play piano. It was something that he did was play piano, and it's very. It's a very emotional testimonial to watch. She was very gracious to provide that for me and I totally agree with what they were saying there.
And you know, in the midst of all this coronavirus stuff, I've been tagged multiple times on Twitter. The piano in 21 days account has been tagged multiple times, I should say. And people are just saying things like, you know, with all. That's going on in the world right now. I'm finding peace with being able to take this time, sit down, and, and either play or learn my piano and, and learn through piano in 21 days. So yeah. That's really cool.
David Krohse: So another way to shift your mindset if you kind of have this mindset that, Oh, if I charge more, I'd be taking advantage of people. The second advice would be to look at what the greatest transformations would be worth. And so again, if you have a course where you help people make money, you can actually survey your, your people in your audience.
Like if, so if you have a course and you say, the average person that actually takes this and puts it in action could generate an additional $30,000 a year. Through this through a part time job. Ask them like, what would you do with that money? And a lot of times what you get first is people would say like, Oh, I could get out of debt.
But then you can always ask like a step deeper. Well, what would get a getting out of debt? Let you do? And then somebody says, well, it would let me buy a house. And then you're like, well, what that, what would that let you do? And then they say, well, I really want to have a house purchase before we start a family.
And so all of a sudden you find out, I mean, you have this transformation that's like. You know, it's just incredible valuable. And it also lets you just then talk to people later on when you're, when you're marketing your course and you say, this course is $1,000, you know, my goal for you is that you're out of debt.
You buy a house, you start your family. That's the vision of what this course does. And that creates, you know, it just lets you value your course properly, but also ultimately sell it.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, I agree. I have nothing to add to that.
David Krohse: The other thing is shifting this mindset, realizing that a higher investment leads to better results. And so what I said here, you know, when people pay more, they're more likely to actually actually accomplish the goals of the course. Would you agree with that?
Jacques Hopkins: Yes, I would agree. From my experience, that is the case and the reason is, is because people have invested more upfront. But I have charge lower prices for my course before. I can tell you that from looking at the actual data, there is a higher completion rate with the higher price and from seeing my testimonials and so on, a higher success rate when I charged a higher price. There's no question about that. Now. That's just one course. That's me in my course, but I would have to think it's the same across the board for the most part.
David Krohse: Definitely. Another one, a higher price has to be there to be, to justify marketing. And so this is an interesting one. There are actually some companies coming out right now that are trying to pretend like this rule does not exist. So Warby Parker, if you're not familiar with their story, I mean, they came in and they said, we're going to sell, I think, $69 pairs of glasses.
And they took off. And since then, all these other companies, Casper mattresses, there's a company called outdoor voices. And then like Harry's razors, they come in and they're like. All right, we're going to sell this product. And the reality is that the product they're trying to sell, or they're trying to price them very cheaply, and then they're spending tons on advertising and client acquisition, and I just read this really fascinating article, and these companies are losing $2 million a day.
They have all this venture capital money behind it, but fundamentally the economics don't work if you, if the. If the item does not justify the marketing, you just can't do the marketing longterm. And so I was looking at your situation. The reality is if you had been at $100 price point when you really ramped up your Google ads, there's a good chance you might not be here today. I mean. Really think about that. What'd your, when you really ramped up Google ads at a $100 price point, would you have actually ROI?
Jacques Hopkins: No, of course not. Because I was having to spend 150 $200 to get a customer, and so if I was only getting $100 in revenue for a course sale, that would have been negative.
But since I was at $500 it was actually positive, or it might've been $300 at the time. But still positive, so, yeah, absolutely. And everything else would have looked the same. It would have been the same course, the same marketing, everything. But I wouldn't have been able to spend money on advertising since, you know, in this example, it would have been negative.
And that's another reason to charge more is because you're going to be doing the work no matter what the pricing is. So you're going to be doing all this work to build out funnels and to build out your course. Why not try to get the most amount for each sale for all that work that you're putting in.
David Krohse: Exactly. But yeah, I mean, you start out with that goal of helping people learn piano all over the world. The reality is you had to charge more. Or you wouldn't have been able to help as many people. So it really is, I mean, it's, you have to do that. But another mindset thing, when people say that charging too much is predatory.
There's a book by, it's a rabbi Daniel Lapin. It's called thou shall prosper. And it's basically the Jewish mindset about money. Somewhere in that book he says that you can, you should think of money as certificates of appreciation. And I love that concept. If you want more certificates of appreciation, like you have two options, you can help individual people more or you can help more people, but you know, that's money. I dunno, money. It's certificates of appreciation. That's just a beneficial mindset.
Jacques Hopkins: I used to listen to the Dave Ramsey show like every day, and I'm a huge Dave Ramsey fan and obviously. I've never read that book, but I know Dave Ramsey, I think he's friends with that guy that wrote it or something like that.
And so I've heard Dave Ramsay talk about their certificates of appreciation before, and I hadn't heard that in awhile. So it's ringing a bell for me from a few years ago, and that's a great way to look at it. I mean, I recently got into what they call the two comma club with ClickFunnels. And so if you.
And so you could think of it like that's how many certificates of appreciation I've gotten. If people weren't appreciating and valuing and getting results from piano in 21 days, there's no way I would've gotten to that level in my business. On the same note, we haven't talked about refunds and refund policies, so if somebody isn't satisfied with my piano course within 30 days, they can ask for a full refund because clearly there's the certificate if we're going to talk about it like that, that they gave me wasn't truly appreciated or out of appreciation at the end of the day, or at least they realize that later on and they wanted, they wanted it back.
And so hopefully all of the dollars that I've now received minus the refunds are actual certificates of appreciation because anybody who wasn't satisfied or are fully appreciative within those first 30 days, they get it back.
David Krohse: Another mindset trick. If you're sitting there and thinking like, Oh, if I raise my prices, I would be taking advantage of people. Is to visualize any, any money that you leave on the table. Like if the course is worth more and you're not charging it, you're actually taking that money away from your family. So imagine that you're, you've got your course charge are priced at a hundred and the reality is that people would pay 300 and you're like, you're like, Oh man.
I just feel like I'd be kind of taken advantage of those people. Psychologically imagine that every time you sell a course, you took $200 from your kid's college fund, which we just talked about. College may or may not be for everybody, but. I mean that is it. Like within my chiropractic profession, a lot of chiropractors charge for an adjustment, but they give away these like other services and it's like every time you do that, if you had to go home and like take it out of your wife's purse, like, I mean, that's, that's emotionally, if you're giving away something of value, you should receive that. The money value, value back.
Jacques Hopkins: That's a good way to look at it. I really like those little psychological tricks like that.
David Krohse: So the last one I did want to talk to is you have some listeners that are reaching very high levels of success, wealthy creators. You know, I think you have listeners that are bringing in twenty thousand thirty thousand dollars a month, and that can really, really be tricky.
You can kind of feel like, well, I don't, I don't need more money than that. But I had an interesting story in my office. This guy came in and it was around this time of year. It was around March, and I said, Oh, how's it going? And he said, well, I have kind of a good problem to have. And I said, Oh, what's that?
And he said, ah, I owe like $30,000 on taxes. And I was like 30 K. I was like, dang, dude. I was like, and you know, I was pretty good friends with this guy, but I was like, well, what kind of number are we talking about overall? And he's like, it's going to be like a $500,000 income year. I don't even know what to do with it.
I was like, well, that's, that's incredible and that's super cool. I'm like, you, you are in this position where you get to think about legacy. I was like, what's your legacy going to be like? Is your name going to be on the side of a hospital or, or library? And the dude was like, ah, that's, that's a fun thought.
He said, I like books a lot. If a course creator is out there and they're making a lot of money, essentially you get to choose your legacy. So. I mean, that could mean that you, you bring in the money and you can help your family and you can, you can basically guide your family and say, we're a family that contributes because our financial needs are taken care of.
So create a endowment or different things like that. The other thing, if you decide, if a course creator decides that they have plenty of money, then they do have the option of lowering it. But if somebody is making, you know, fifty thousand seventy thousand dollars a month, that can be really mind blowing.
And they could say, I shouldn't raise prices because I'm already making a lot. But I'm just going to say like, choose your path. What do you want and what do you want your legacy to be and how do you want to use that money for the greatest good?
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, making and having a lot of money isn't inherently bad. I think it's more about what you do with it and sometimes it takes a lot of money to do really, really great things. I know there's a pretty popular course creator out there named Rachel Peterson, who she's been very successful and has amazing courses. I think take talk maybe is our latest topic. She does a lot of social media type stuff, and I think I'm saying this right, but she wants to donate $1 million to this dental charity.
It helps kids get nice teeth and it's because she struggled with her teeth all her life and had horrible teeth and, and she was struggling. She was a single mom and she started to put herself on camera. She was very self conscious about her teeth. Eventually, she was successful with all the courses when they was able to spend a lot of money on her teeth and have this beautiful smile that she has now.
But it's something that's just near and dear to her heart. So there's this particular dental charity that helps people, and maybe even kids specifically with, you know, just improving their smile and her goal is through her courses to donate $1 million to that charity. Also, ClickFunnels has the two comma club award that we talked about many times, but they also released a new award recently, and it's called the two heart award.
And that's for anyone that donates at least a million dollars to their charity. So apparently ClickFunnels has their own charity, which does great things all over the world. And so where the two comma club is for anyone that brings into commas, you know, $1 million, at least in revenue using click funnels.
Gets the two comma club award. The two heart award is for anyone that donates $1 million to that charity. So between the story about Rachel Peterson and ClickFunnels new award, those are just a couple of stories of wanting to donate at least a million dollars. well, it's hard to donate $1 million. You have to have a lot more than that.
I w I would think to be able to donate that amount. And so there's people doing great things that earn a lot of money through courses or other things and have been able to pay it forward and help other people through those large sums of money.
David Krohse: Yeah, Dave Ramsey's thing with money. He says money is amoral. A moral, it's like a brick. And so if you're holding a brick, you can throw it through a window or you can use it to start to build a hospital. And so, yeah, I mean, you get to make that decision. If you've been giving a lot of money, then you get to make bigger decisions and potentially do something really cool in the world.
Let's see here. I saw a poor mindset and it came up in that Facebook feed. Poor mindset would be, I can only charge a high amount if I give up more of my time. the specific quote was, this guy said it's not realistic to sell video based courses for technical topics at nine 97 when everyone knows they can get them for $5 on Udemy and elsewhere.
If you bundle in office hours and live support and stuff like that, maybe, but I like my freedom. I know that in your situation, in one of your top packages, you offer. Live one on one session. What percentage of people take you and take you up on that?
Jacques Hopkins: I don't know the exact percentage that I sold of that particular package, but over a thousand copies that I've sold, and I think I've done either two or three live lessons, I'm not sure which one.
So over the course of selling, you know, over a thousand copies of that program, literally only two or three of the live lessons. When I tell people like they can literally get two one-on-one lessons for me when they sign up for that particular package. So why are they not. In general, taking me up on that.
While there's a couple of reasons that that are in my head. First of all, I think at this point, through the course and record re-recording it as many times as I have, I think the course itself does a pretty good job at walking somebody through this piano learning process and answering any questions that they might have and really addressing any pain points and struggles that they might have.
But. But obviously I'm a little biased and I am the course creator. So I would love to think that that's the main reason. But I think the other reason is that in general, people are kind of shy and don't necessarily want to reach out and schedule that one on one time. Or also, I mean, there's a reason they sign up for an online course, right?
They didn't want to necessarily have to be somewhere at a time and a place and have those live lessons. So maybe it's something that sounds good to people when they're signing up. But for the most part, people aren't really cashing in on it and the actual redemption rate is pretty low.
David Krohse: And that's what I would say. I would say that, I mean, there could be exceptions, but by and large, I want the most perfect course that has everything that I need and I don't, I don't want an actual live portion if it's not needed. Kind of funny if you see other examples where like basically people that are selling things to think that more money means more time.
I do the big brothers big sisters program, so I took my little brother to a live version of Aladdin. Aladdin was a movie I grew up with. I loved watching it and we went to the show and they added in like four songs that quite frankly, weren't as good as the original, and the whole time I'm sitting there, I'm like, why are you adding this stuff?
But presumably they thought that people at that show wanted more. You know, more time for their money. And I was sitting there thinking like, I don't like, I just, I want, what was the original, what was the best? More time isn't always better. Basically there's a value in just giving your stuff at home. And so it can be tempting to think that the less, the less time you spend some with somebody, the less money you should charge.
But I mean, that can be inaccurate. So another thing, I mean, I've seen an example in a course that I'm in right now where. Essentially just, you know, when people join a course, they don't need extra time. So, I dunno, what do you think about that?
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. One of my pet peeves is when people try to promote their course and they're like, Oh, it's, you know, we've got 162 hours of HD content, this and that. Like it's not that important. The results that I'm going to get and what your past and the results of your past students is what's really important. You know, I mentioned that I probably have the most expensive online piano course, but I probably have the shortest overall, like in total content. And so that's actually a perk to my students that there's less concepts to go through.
And one of the main hooks is that I'm teaching people to learn quickly. And so you can't compare total hours of the course, total hours of content. You can't compare the actual one-on-one time. It's just, it's just a package and you have to package it all up and figure out what the overall value is of the package.
David Krohse: All right, so let's talk about and jump into the steps to implement. If somebody has been charging a low amount and they listen to this and they're like, you know, I believe that my course is worth more than I've been charging. What would be the actual implementation steps to start to charge more.
First one I have is just if somebody is on one of these marketplaces where they're getting a couple of dollars per student in the courses is $10 the first thing would just be to start building a list and just ask if there is a way that people can, you can serve them better, ask if there's things missing in the courses that are out there already.
Jacques Hopkins: That's for those that are in a place like you to me and maybe only getting $10 per sale. And for some that is a great place to start. But in general, as far as pricing, the the very best ways to just test it. I mean, that's what I've done. I started at $97 when I first launched and I got some sales and not a lot of those people actually went through the course and completed the course.
And then I went to two 97 and a lot more people actually completed the course. And then. It was at two 97 for a while and then I went to four 97 and it was even better because I was making the same amount of sales, if not more, and people were having even more success at that price range. And then I tried six 97 so I was just, you know, keep going with the trend of increasing the price, testing out and seeing what the results are, and it wasn't as good.
I didn't make as many core salespeople. We're still getting results. I didn't get a single refund request at the six 97 price point, but I just wasn't making as much revenue. I wasn't making as many sales, so I just tested it. I kept bumping it up, bumping up and testing it and figuring out exactly what that sweet spot would be.
David Krohse: You mentioned this already, but offering a guarantee. I mean, somebody says that charging a high amount is predatory, but if you offer a guarantee, if somebody gets in there and finds that the value that they thought was going to be there isn't there, you just give them the money back. I mean, that's very straight forward and it should take away any kind of feelings that you're charging too much.
Proving the value through testimonials. When Nate, my wife, joined Nate Dodson's microgreens course, and when she joined. I think the exact offer was that if a person joined his course and sold $500 worth of microgreens and let him know, then he would give them their entire course enrollment back. And so again, another way, just to make it like, you know, I want to make sure you're 100% satisfied. I also want to give you a goal to reach.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, that's a very cool thing that Nate does, and I think that would work on me depending on the topic as well.
David Krohse: Another one is just creating a community. I see courses that if there's this really strong community through a Facebook group, that it's hard to, hard to assess the exact value of that, but I know that I'm in a chiropractic specific group right now that I pay $100 a month just to basically receive some amount of education through online videos and Facebook lives.
But honestly, I don't end up watching those hardly ever. The biggest value is being in a group of my fellow chiropractor peers in a place where I can honestly like share successes and share struggles and just help each other out. So this supportive community, it's easily worth $100 a month for me. So that's a huge one.
You mentioned before connecting your course to a nonprofit mission or having a scholarship program. So that would be a huge one. I put testing higher prices as well, so.
Jacques Hopkins: All right, David. Well, that was an awesome conversation about just money and how much we should be charging and the value and all that. And that was just the first mindset or assumption, whatever you want to call it, on our list. And we have several here. And honestly, we spent a little more time on this first one than I expected, but I think it was very, very good your time well spent. So I think what we should do is actually come back for part two of this topic to finish these out.
I think we spent the most amount of time that we're going to spin on any one of these on this very first one about money and value. So I think let's go ahead and put a bow on this episode and we'll do part two covering the rest of our mindsets and assumptions. Does that sound good to you?
David Krohse: Sounds good.
All right man. Well, I appreciate it. So, so much you coming on so prepared with all these notes, just very insightful stuff that is bringing a lot of great value to me and to the audience. Like I said, we're going to call it quits for what's going to be part one of this topic, and so for everybody listening, thank you so much for being here.
For all the notes and links from today's episode, you can find those show notes by going to the online course. guy.com/one 26. David just talked about having a community with your online course. Well, we have a community for this podcast that is the online course community. If you're not a member of it yet, then you can check it out by going to the online course guy.com and click on community at the top.
Or if you're on Facebook already, search up the online course community inside there and you'll find a lot of course graders. Listeners to the show and even a lot of past podcast guests all just interacting about online courses and sharing feedback. It's a great place to be if you're a course creator or aspiring course creator, and I go live in that Facebook group every Friday morning to answer your questions.
So if you're not in there already. Join it. It's a lot of fun. And if this is your first time listening to the podcast, the next, well maybe the next one you should listen to is part two of this if it's out yet, but after that, go back to episode 89 because that's our online courses one Oh one episode.
Thanks again everyone. We'll talk next week.
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