“If you’re afraid to ask for reviews, you need to reevaluate your course and the quality you are providing.”
– Jacques Hopkins
It’s always a good time to refocus, challenge limiting beliefs, and adjust your mindset. I really enjoyed my conversation with David, and I think you will too!
In This Episode, We Talked About:
- (2:03) Why we’re revisiting this topic and what’s new for me since last week
- (9:00) How to think about affiliate programs and resources
- (11:08) Thoughts on the Patreon model
- (15:24) The fear of asking for testimonials and reviews
- (17:00) A misconception about choice and a way I could be leveraging this more with my own course
- (20:30) An interesting suggestion from David (warning: this involves math) 😉
- (22:22) Scarcity strategies: are they smart, or manipulative? Plus a recent example of why I’m a fan
- (26:40) How my webinar funnel and signup incentives work
- (28:28) Payment options and how personal preferences can be misleading
- (31:08) Making things as clear as possible for the student
- (33:08) Giving up on a strategy vs. productive troubleshooting
- (37:17) Getting over the fear of outsourcing
- (40:43) How David implements strategies from a book that has inspired us both
- (45:57) Email frequency, unsubscribe options, and not being annoying
- (50:29) A common myth about running out of students
- (52:31) Got feedback?
- (54:26) Getting the right people “on the bus”
Whew! That about does it for today – don’t forget to join us for the next episode! We’ll be back to our regular interview format and I’m really looking forward to this one. Have a safe and healthy week!
Jacques Hopkins: This episode is brought to you by Bon Juro. I have literally sent over 3000 bond euros every time someone signs up for my piano course. The next day they'll get a short personal video from me. And Bon Juro is the tool that makes that process easy and seamless. And if you know me, you know how much I like easy and seamless to get started with your free trial of bungee oil today.
Go to dot com slash Jacques that's dot com slash J a C Q U E S. now onto episode one 27 which is part two of two of our deep dive into having the right mindset to succeed with your online course business. Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course, and they're making a living doing.
But not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way, and I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses. Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins, and this is the online course show.
And off we go. Welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. This is the online course show. I'm your host Jacques Hopkins, and here with me is our cohost, David Krohse.
David Krohse: Hey Jacques, what's up?
Jacques Hopkins: Hey, what's up, David? And we're excited to dive into all things online courses. With you today, David, this is something I don't think you and I have done before. We are on part two of a two part series of the podcast. Exciting.
David Krohse: I am excited.
Jacques Hopkins: So last episode we did part one of all things mindset and kind of the poor mindsets and assumptions that people have about online courses and the the corresponding positive one. Action steps we can do to maybe improve that mindset and whatnot.
And you know, this was never originally designed to be a two part episode, but what happened is we had nine or 10 of these listed, and last episode we only got through one. Now, I would say it's probably the biggest one, and I think we can get through the rest of them in this episode.
David Krohse: That sounds good.
Jacques Hopkins: So before we get into a, David, want to share with you and the audience? A couple of things that have happened in my online course business in the past week. One is, one is kind of a cool story, and the other one is kind of a, Oh my gosh, I can't believe I was so stupid story. Which one do you want to hear first?
David Krohse: Let's throw the bad one first. Let's hear that right? The stupid fun. Yeah.
Jacques Hopkins: So. As far as the piano in 21 days, business goes, I make money in two ways, and one of them is accounts for, you know, 95% of the revenue would be core sales, simply core sales. But I do make a little bit of money from affiliate income from Amazon, from recommending pianos and keyboards to people.
So. I make between like 600 and a thousand dollars a month, depending on that, you know, like Christmas time I, I'll bring in like $1,500 and then during the summer maybe like, you know, four or $500 from Amazon. And I've been doing that for several years now. And it's just a way to, you know, have another income stream.
And people also really appreciate getting my recommendations on that. Well, I was looking through my, my books and. Notice that it seems like the Amazon revenue was very, very low in February and the January. Come to find out, I have not received that money from Amazon. The Amazon U S affiliates. For an entire year?
David Krohse: Oh no.
Jacques Hopkins: For an entire year. I look back at my records. The last payment I could find was March 29th of 2019 and cause I get, you have to open a separate account for all the different countries you promote in. So I have a different account for Canada and England and France and Spain in Italy and so on. And so I, I do have a little bit of of income that's coming in from those other countries, but apparently I've not been getting my payment from the U S store, which is by far my biggest one. And I think what happened is, is I opened a new business account about a year ago around that time frame, and when I was switching over where they should pay me, I just don't think it ever worked.
Right. They, they're showing a record of their on their side in my account that they've submitted the payment to me, but I have no record of actually receiving it. And my first. In my, my, you know, my first response to that is, how could I be so stupid to go an entire year without noticing this? And I just, you know, I want to share this story because, you know, I'm not perfect by any means.
I can make stupid mistakes just like anybody else. And I just want to let this be a reminder to people listening. Make sure you're watching, like if you're expecting money to come in or money to go out, make sure you keep keeping a close tabs on it. And I've been working with a new bookkeeping service since the beginning of this year of all finance and it's going really, really well evolved finance.com highly recommend those guys.
And it's because of their detailed reporting that I finally noticed that I wasn't getting this. So I hopefully have a decent amount of money coming to me from Amazon. just over $8,000 is what I'm missing.
David Krohse: Very nice.
Jacques Hopkins: I guess I feel really stupid, man. Now let's switch to more of a cool story. You ever heard of Marley Jaxx?
David Krohse: No, I haven't.
Jacques Hopkins: She is a, she's a YouTuber and an influencer. Instagram. You know, YouTube. Facebook has courses on, on video, video marketing and YouTube and whatnot. Well, she was one of the speakers at the ClickFunnels conference, so a lot of people know who she is. I'm familiar with her. But I, I don't know her personally, or at least I didn't know her personally.
And it's, it's one of those things where, you know, I would see her like pass by at the conference room. There's 5,000 people there. People would stop her and like get selfies with their, you know, she was in the, in the click funnels circles and the, in the online marketing circles. She's, she's kind of a big deal.
And so two days ago I was checking my core sales and. I had a had a sale, you know, my, my piano course had a sale to somebody named barley jacks. And I was like, you know, I get, I get sales from people with, with names of people. I know. Like the other day I got a sale from somebody who had the same name as my brother-in-law.
Well, I knew my brother in law hadn't actually purchased it. It was just, you know, the same name. So it was like, you know, Jack's isn't, you know, it's J a X, X. It's not a super common. Last name. In fact, I think that's more of a stage name for her, but her email address didn't have Jackson it. And so I was, I did a little research trying to figure out if it was actually the same person or not.
And finally I was like, screw this, let me just email her. I was like, are you this Marley Jackson? I will link till you know Marley jacks.com she's like, yeah, this, that's me. Like, I'm so excited to learn piano from me. I was like, I was like, no way. Like I was at the click photos conference, you know, I love your talk and all this. Well. Come to find out, she's actually been on my email list for over four years.
David Krohse: No way.
Jacques Hopkins: She, she first joined my email list in early 2016 so that means she's been through like 12 or 13 launches from me, and she even said that she's like, every time you launch, like I've just, I always want to sign up and I just, it's just never the right time, but now's the right time.
I'm so excited that I finally signed up. It was really cool that. You know, I kinda, this is a person that I kind of looked up to, but yet she's been following my stuff for the past four years.
David Krohse: That's awesome.
Jacques Hopkins: She's officially signed up and started her lessons, and she's big into like Instagram stories and whatnot. So I started following her and she's every day she's posting her progress of her learning how to play piano and students. Seems like she's making some pretty good progress so far. But of course.
David Krohse: I'll check that out. I'll see what she's doing.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, for sure. So that was a, that's a, that's a little fun little story. So let's get into our content for today. David last week we started this conversation about mindset and assumptions and the one big one that we went over had to do with what you actually charge for your course, the money involved, and the associated value as well. We've got some new ones to go over with the audience here today. Why don't you kind of kick us off and do a brief recap of last time and also tell, you know, tell people what they can expect as we go through these new ones here today.
David Krohse: Essentially last one. We could call that episode the causes and cures of a poverty complex. This idea that if people don't feel like they can charge the right amount of money, they're, they're leaving opportunities to bring income in for their family money that could go to whatever cause that they would like to help.
And so just encouraging people to value their course and value what they bring to the table. And not to overcharge, but just to charge the right amount. And so then this would be just mindsets, mindsets, just trying to get over success, limiting mindsets, poor mindsets. This first one. I say people want to reciprocate when they receive value through using affiliate links Patrion and sharing their excitement through testimonials and social media.
Jock, you already mentioned affiliates, but I have to admit, like when I think about doing, signing up and starting to do affiliates, I feel this tiny bit of uneasiness that people would think that I'm only recommending something because of this motive of making money. So did you deal with that at all? As you started to do affiliate recommend affiliate services.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, sure. David. I think that's a natural response, but I made a decision very early on that I'm only going to recommend things that I'm already using. Right. And it's just kind of a bonus on top if they offer a nice affiliate program. So. Click funnels is one of the most generous affiliate programs that I've come across, and they're, they're really good with helping you with the marketing and stuff too.
So I don't just promote that because it's a, it's a great opportunity for myself and my business. I do, but I also promote it because it's one of the tools I use literally every day, and I absolutely love. And so I have a list of tools. And software and things that I use every single day. And some have affiliate programs and some don't.
And I promote both, and I'm very transparent about that. And when something does have an affiliate program where having a link, I'm transparent about the fact that that is an affiliate program. So the key for me is just. Being transparent about it. And so far, I think the audience has appreciated that they've responded by continuously signing up for the various things that I promote.
David Krohse: Yeah. And that's what I've observed. I mean, I have admired the way that you, you openly say that you only only do affiliates of things that you recommend and use personally. You also do a good job of sharing why you believe in the products or services. So yeah, I think you do it. Do it exactly right.
Jacques Hopkins: Thanks David. I appreciate that. And you know, just take this podcast, for example, the two, the two sponsors that we have at this point, I kind of rotate every other episode, our deadline funnel and Bon Juro and you know, those are, those are both tools I strongly believe in. I use every single day are vital to my business. And not only that, I've had the creator and owner of both of them on this podcast, and I know them personally.
David Krohse: Yeah. This Patrion I don't know how familiar most listeners are with this. Patrion. I learned about it. I was on an a out on a bike ride with this group of my cycling teammates, and somebody mentioned this younger lady on our team.
They said, have you seen her modeling pictures and what she's doing on Patrion? And I was like, what is Patrion? And they're like, Oh, she's puts out these pictures and guys around the world, like sponsor her to see more pictures. I'm like, what? Anyways, I learned about it and then I started hearing about it in various things that I listened to so.
I listened to a podcast called, what should I read next? And she started mentioning her Patrion it looks like to join her Patrion you pay $5 per month. It says on the Patrion site that she has 959 people that are doing that. And so that's $4,795 a month coming in. People get a little extra content for that or get early access to some of the stuff.
The other one that I actually recommended that Jacques you interview is this guy that has a YouTube channel called what I've learned. I looked at his Patrion. He has 670 Patriot patrons and price ranges between one to $25 per month. So. It actually says on his Patrion that it's bringing in $1,636 per month.
So I don't know, like would you consider doing anything like that? Jacques. I mean, essentially it's letting people know that if they appreciate what you're doing, they can sponsor you and keep you, you know, just support you.
Jacques Hopkins: No Patriot is not something that I would do. At least not right now. Knowing what I know about it, it's a very cool concept. And what, I don't know that you quite mentioned this, but in general, people are not putting up the money just to put up the money and typically you get something in return. Right? So you get special access to things. And a lot of times it's YouTube ERs who are, who are finding a another way to monetize their content other than just with ads.
And so they'll put up links to Patriot and they'll get access to exclusive videos that are only on their patron channel or other things. I mean, you mentioned the like model, right? I, I'm pretty sure that, you know, people that, that are on YouTube or even Instagram for modeling, we'll put. You know, pictures on their Patriot and that only their Patriots can see it and it's not any anywhere else.
And so there is value that the, the Patriot and user is, is providing to the people that are paying them there. So, in my opinion, an online course is a far better way to go about that process. Right? So, you know, I've got my piano in 21 days, YouTube channel. That's how I started out. Well, instead of having an online course, I could have started a patriotic.
I guess, I don't know if they're called channels or whatever and provided, you know, exclusive lessons there. Right. But in general, you're gonna you're going to make far more money. With, with just sending people to an online course instead. And typically you're going to be able to provide more value, a more complete a to Z system. And so while the model is kind of cool, I think in general, an online course is a better way to go.
David Krohse: Sure. Well, I, I can understand what you're saying. I agree with it to an extent. I do think that like looking at your specific business. If you, if you told people, if somebody did want to do a Patrion, it's like number one, you can provide the person that becomes your patron some value, but I would also say you would want to share like, this is what we're working towards.
This is what our family is working toward. You know, if you have a bunch of fans, they'd be like, you know, if you say, we're working toward traveling in Europe this summer and we're going to be adding, doing updates while we're over there, and all of our patrons will get to watch that. I could see where people would do that and I could see in your model, I mean like again, if you were like $5 per month and you get access to like the Facebook lives that you do it, that you're doing. To me, I support your mission and I would do that. So I mean, each course creators situation is unique, but I think, I think Patriot is a valid option.
Jacques Hopkins: That's, yeah, that's a really good point, David. I mean, the, the way that I've structured my businesses is for piano in 21 days. If you want to support that, you're buying the course and for the online course guy, if you want to support that, then then sign up for these amazing software platforms that hopefully you would sign up for anyway using my affiliate link. And so far those, those two different models have worked, but there could be, there could be room for for that. I appreciate the insight.
David Krohse: Third one is just think that for course creators, it's hard to get in the mindset of asking for testimonials and reviews. I think that in general, our top concern is of course creator is that we're going to feel like we're harassing or kind of begging people for these reviews or a fear that if we send a message out to everybody that somebody actually might give us negative feedback and hurt our feelings as far as how to implement and do reviews better.
Obviously, you've asked a lot of the course creators, but. What I see most work most often is like this feedback and review ladder. Where you're first asking is just like, Hey, you know, I would like to know how the course is going for you, how you're experiencing it, experiencing it. Can you rate it for me on a one to five scale?
And then anybody that puts a five, like that's the one that you reach out to for review. Any other tips beyond what you've said about millennials and reviews mindset.
Jacques Hopkins: We've got a good product, then you shouldn't be scared of anything. I think at the end of the day, if you're truly scared to ask for reviews, then maybe you need to reevaluate what exactly your course is and the quality of your course. It actually took me a while to start reaching out to people and getting their feedback. Originally on that first version of my course and I, and I think the main reason is because I was scared to see what they were going to say.
Right. And there were, there were negative comments or positive comments as well. And version two, that's what made version two even better, and version three even better and so on. And so sesamoid IOLs are great too. Help with your marketing and help get people to sign up, but they're also great at getting that feedback to make you and your business even better.
David Krohse: Okay, so the next mindset, the beneficial mindset is that people appreciate being guided to the best enrollment option. I say that most people, the two words, most people are the most powerful words in sales. People like to like to do what most people are having. The best experience with the opposing poor mindset would be people should be given multiple options and just allowed to make their own decision, their decision on their own. And that's, you know, it seems like it's kind to just lay out the options and let people decide.
Jacques Hopkins: Well, it doesn't, I don't know. Do you have any experience with this, this one, like that in, in the real world? I mean. If we take an actual example, I think what you're saying is people could go to piano in 21 days.com and just like right there, okay. See the three options they can sign up for and they can just pick one or they can, I can have them go through this nice elaborate funnel that guides them and leads them to the, the proper sale and from experience, the ladder works much better and people are, people are happy. Like I get very few complaints about my my funnel, and I think it's necessary to build that relationship and that rapport, especially if you have a higher priced product.
David Krohse: What kind of specifically? Like if I go to a restaurant, I'm somebody that if I go to a restaurant picture, like I'm most people, a lot of people who have been to cheesecake factory, but I mean their menu is like, what, 20 pages long? Like I'm always going to map or ask my server, like what? What are your favorites? What do you recommend highest. And it is a huge pet peeve. If somebody, if a waiter or waitress is like, Oh, I haven't really tried anything, and I feel like it's a missed opportunity from a sales perspective because again, if you open a restaurant, it's like you want people to have the best experience.
There's a local restaurant here in town. Called the Latin King. And you know, if you got there, they're going to tell you day one, like what we're known for is that it's called the chicken's Bodine. And that lets them, the more they tell people that the more people have this great experience and it also lets them keep that item in stock and as fresh as possible. So in the context of the course, it's like you have the three options and your course. The idea would be that when you present these options. You know you've got that premium one, let's say that the premium, what's your highest end package?
Jacques Hopkins: Like? What does it call a called or costs? What is it called? The ultimate package.
David Krohse: The ultimate package. So when you get to that, you would want to say most people and then something and the ultimate package. And so I know that you have this song, strong sense of ethics where you want to do it. Like. If you're not selling the most of the ultimate package, you wouldn't want to say like, this is our most popular package. So then you would say, now the ultimate package, most people find that most beneficial, they get the best results with that, and that's 100% honest, but I'm telling you like that just the people that are listening, they say, okay, well, yeah, most people are having the best experience with that when I should do that.
And then ultimately, ultimately your ultimate package becomes your most popular item. It's like let people know that. And most people choose this one. They love it. I just think most people is like the most powerful two words.
Jacques Hopkins: I like that. I probably should use that more because the ultimate package, my most expensive package is my most popular option, in not just in revenue, but in, in total number of sales as well. And I don't think I really ever say that. I just talk about how, you know, how great of a value it is for the money. How much you're actually getting, but I never, I don't think anywhere my marketing actually say that most people are signing up for it, and I think that's just one thing that I could add.
David Krohse: Yeah. Here's another example. Let's say that you were having a bunch of people like default on their payment plans and you're like, man, I'd really like to have less payment plans coming through. Your payment plan, it ends up being like $600 is that correct?
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, close to it. Right, so four 97 one time payment or $97 a month for six months.
David Krohse: Okay, so let's say a bunch of people were defaulting. You could get to that point and you would say, all right, so we have a payment plan option. I just want to let you know that most people still go ahead and do their own payment plan, so to speak, with their credit card. If you do my payment plan option, I have to take the risk.
The risk and it adds up to $600 if you put it on your credit card for $197 even at 18% interest, if you pay that off in six months, you only end up with 24% interest. And so most people learn those numbers and they just put it on their own credit card and pay it off in six months and save $75 and you know.
I mean, that might be the difference where your, your payment plans go down and you get more of those, those sales. And if you were having a bunch of defaults, it could improve that.
Jacques Hopkins: David, I might need to like just hired you as my marketing coach. You know, these, these are great. These are getting the head, the wheels turning in my head because if I could take that a step further, you know, there's a single PayPal credit and I'm pretty sure they offer interest free for six months.
So instead of saying a credit card, I could say, you know, guys, if you, if you don't want to pay this extra money for my payment plan, sign up for PayPal credit and do your own payment plan interest free, and you're not going to have to pay beyond the four 97.
David Krohse: Yeah. And just, yeah. And then normalize. You're trying to normalize a behavior that's good for the good, for your customer and at the same time as good for you. And it is. So just let them know. Most people think this sounds like a great idea, so.
Jacques Hopkins: Love it. Thanks for the recommendations.
David Krohse: Definitely. All right. Our next one is, it's the, the beneficial mindset would be strategies such as scarcity and deadlines, encourage people to make mutually beneficial decisions. It helps them. It helps the course creator. The opposing poor mindset would be strategies such as scarcity and deadlines are purely manipulative. So I know you've talked about this in the past. Give us your take on scarcity and deadlines.
Jacques Hopkins: This one's exciting man. Cause this one, this one gets people riled up probably just as much as that very first one about pricing and value. I obviously have an evergreen. Funnel. I use deadline funnel, my GoTo expert on, on all things, you know, scarcity, evergreen, scarcity, all that would be Jack borne, the creator of deadline funnel. I think it was episode 96 he was on one of my favorite episodes so far. And so if anybody's concerned about this topic, definitely listen to that because his insights are amazing.
You know, when I, when I first heard about deadline funnel, I thought that type of software would be created by somebody kind of sleazy and scammy. Couldn't be further from the further from the truth, the most ethical and genuine person that you'll come across. And he recommends that you say things like, not like, don't say things like.
The cart is closing for everybody at this time or you know, this offer is going away, you know, period. Say things like your ability to buy this will end at this point because that is 100% true. When you use something like deadline funnel that is a, it is a personal launch for that person and their ability will no longer be there.
And if it's true, if you're, if, if, if you say it's going to close at Friday at midnight, you will not be able to by Friday at midnight and then. They still can. Well, that's, that's where the, the unethical part comes in. But if you use the language for that particular person, and then everything that you say is true. And in my opinion, that's the right way to go about doing evergreen marketing and sales funnels.
David Krohse: Yeah, I've, I've appreciated hearing you talk through it on some of the past episodes and I agree with that. I think that. I think that it can help people make decisions. Again, the analogy that helps me understand it is like there are deadlines everywhere in life.
There's a deadline to sign up for a college. And if there was no deadline, people wouldn't take this action that ultimately it ultimately takes them to a better place in life. I guess you and I talked about college last episodes on the other things. As far as implementing it, I feel like everyone should be able to create some scarcity in their marketing or within talking about their launch.
So number one, I mean, you can just say prices are going to go up at some point. They are. It might be two years down the road, but for the person that's watching that webinar, I would just leave it vague and just say. You know, here's the price today, prices will be going up and just leave it at that and the person doesn't know if you're spiking at $400 or if it's going to go up $50.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. But on the, you know, at the same time, some people will say, you know, the price will go up to this amount on this date. If you're using exact terminology like that, then you better actually do that.
David Krohse: Yeah, exactly. I do agree with that.
Jacques Hopkins: One more thing related to this is, you know, I mentioned Marley Jack signing up earlier today. I mean, just to show you that deadlines work and not just work to get people to sign up, but actually to, to engage with your program and started going through it. You know, Marley Jack signed up in the 11th hour of, of the launch. And I look back at my email history with her and several times she emailed me like on the last day of the launch or the day after the launch, and she would say like, I really want to sign up.
I'm going to sign up next time. Like I got S I got several emails from her looking back through my inbox and this time it worked. Now you know, the things are going on in the world, like a lot of people are staying home right now. So that's probably why she ended up pulling the trigger right now. But. Ever since she signed up. She has practice every day and it's only been like three days and she's already playing salt Lake. She posted a video of her playing, don't stop believing by journey on her Instagram and singing along with it after three days in the program. So she's so motivated. She's so jazzed up, and if I didn't have that deadline, like she's probably not learning piano right now.
David Krohse: That's awesome. The other thing, as far as implementing, I feel like everybody should be able to offer some kind of a bonus if the thing is a bot within a certain amount of time. But jock, I was wondering if you could give just a brief explanation, like when people watch your webinar, if they buy by the end of the webinar or they get a bonus, but like is there a short version of how that works? Like how do you know if people bought during the actual webinar.
Jacques Hopkins: I do have the analytics to be able to tell when they bought and compare that to when and if they watch the webinar. So I do tell people if they buy by the end of the webinar, they get the physical package mailed to them and they pay in full. The way that I handle it is if anybody is, is, you know, thinks they deserve the physical package, I gave it to them. Right? So. Any gray area at all. I give it to them. So really, you know, unless somebody is buying at that 11th hour on the close of the cart, then it's pretty clear that they probably didn't purchase during the webinar. You know, unless it's them, then they pretty much will get a physical package.
David Krohse: Hmm. Okay. Do you explain then your, your deadline funnel, your new webinar strategy, do you explain how you would know if somebody bought during the actual webinar.
Jacques Hopkins: No, I don't explain that, but it's probably something that I could include in the future in a course or something.
David Krohse: Okay. That'd be awesome. Yeah. All right. And then other than that, I mean as far as the scarcity and deadlines, the other thing to implement is just offer a guarantee, and if somebody buys because of the deadline and then they're not satisfied, you're able to give them their money back and, and nobody really loses.
Jacques Hopkins: Excellent point. David. Not satisfied or weren't truly ready. Cause I've certainly had people come come through and be like, look, shock. I, I need a refund. I want to take you up on your offer to refund it. I made an impulse decision. I'm just not ready to take the course. Fair. You get your money back. No problem.
David Krohse: All right, so my next mindset is the beneficial mindset. Is that different people, like different payment options, the poor mindset or a mindset that could limit your courses growth. Is this assumption that the payment option that would, that you would personally want as a course creator is what everyone else would want?
I would say that in general, we tend to see the world through our own lens. So like Jacques and I are actually probably pretty anti debt people, and so I know that personally, like. The idea of having people take out credit to like buy my course. I dunno. It's, it's not ideal. I don't know. I think in this situation though, you just have to look at the facts and 69% of Americans have less than a thousand dollars in savings, and so. Essentially people do need payment plans often. I don't know. Do you, have you had to overcome this mindset at all? Shock?
Jacques Hopkins: Sure. Yeah. Like you said, I mean, we're, we're both pretty anti Deb. We're both like, you know, Dave, Dave Ramsey advocates, we both listened to like the choose FII podcast pretty into that space. And so. And you know, paying, paying off my mortgage and not having any debt was big into my, my story in this, in my success, in allowing me to quit my job and so on. So I did fight that for a little bit because when you offer a payment plan, you are essentially turning yourself into a bake that has to come after you know, people that owe you money.
And so, cause people, people will, people. Email me and be like, look, Jacques, I want to cancel my subscription. You know, don't charge me anything else. And I have to explain them. Like, look, this is not a monthly membership. This is not just come and go. You know, like a gym membership. And I have to explain people, this is more like a debt that you have, that you're paying off.
And for one reason or another. People didn't get that, or they forgot that. And I've, I've actually recently put in some additional information right at the beginning for people. They get a special email when they sign up for the payment plan, just really laying out exactly what they have to do. So I'm excited to see.
How that will cause I just hate when people are confused down the road of what they actually signed up for. It absolutely hate that. But when I have to explain people like, no, this is more like a debt. You have to pay off and I'm, I'm the, you know what, I'm the creditor that, that does give me some uneasy feeling.
But like you said, I mean, we've got a, we've got a lot of people to pay in whatever way they want to pay. I mean, some people. Probably some people maybe just like to have a monthly expense versus a an all up front expense, even if they could afford it. I know sometimes, depending on how much extra I'm actually having to pay, I'll go with the payment plan option just to spread it out. Just, you know, for the sake of managing my monthly budget.
David Krohse: Yeah. On that note of people, to some extent, I'm going to tell you that people are going to be confused no matter what. My friend Brandon, he got a job where he goes out and checks in cars that have been on lease for like three or five years and he gets out there and checks them out and the car is like super clean and the person that's had the lease, they, my friend Brandon told me, they say, so do I get my entire deposit back?
And Brandon just stands there and he's like. No, he's like, you're, they think that it's like when you sign up for a rental apartment and you pay the, you know, one month deposit, and he's like, that's not how it works. That money that you paid at the start of the lease, like even if you keep the car perfect, you don't get it back.
And I was just cracking up. I was like, Oh no. Like, so yeah. I mean, even if you make it super clear, like some people aren't going to pay attention. I think.
Jacques Hopkins: That's true. But. Before what I implemented recently, all I had to go back on was the information to my sales presentation. Whereas now what's happening is, is when they sign up for the payment plan, they get an automatic second email in addition to the welcome email. Like, look, here's the payment plan. Here's exactly what you signed up for. Here's what you can expect. You know, this is not a monthly membership and that way now there's something we can always look back on. If, if there's ever any dispute or argument about like, look, look back at this email when you first signed up.
This, explain it all. And so I implemented that a couple of weeks ago and I'm excited about just having some, even if it's just a little more clarity for people, if it's, if it's some more clarity, then I'm excited about that.
David Krohse: Let's see here. You recommend the service stunning, correct?
Jacques Hopkins: Yes. Yeah. And that only works th that only works with Stripe, which most people would be accepting payments from Stripe. But yes, studying helps you to automatically send out emails to people to update their credit card information if they get failed payments.
David Krohse: Sounds good. Yeah. So the only other thing I had is just, you know, again, you're trying to provide people with these payment options that work best for them. Always try to make it as frictionless as possible. So simple, simple, and smooth and easy. Is is the name of the game to make it easy for people to sign up for your course?
Jacques Hopkins: Agree. I agree with that, David. Love it.
David Krohse: All right. Our next mindset is if a strategy works for others, it will probably also work for me, but it may not work for me on the first time. The poor mindset would be if I tried a strategy once and it didn't work. It just doesn't work for me. And we've heard this on a few recent. Or we've heard it on a couple of different recent of your interviews and just as we talk, but I mean, it's easy to think, especially if you try a marketing strategy and it doesn't work that it just doesn't work for you. I don't know. What do you think of that?
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. I love this one. I mean, what if, you know, in general, product launch formula works, right? That's where you have some prelaunch videos leading up into your open cart period, and then you have an open cart period and the closed part period. So if you have a course and you're like, okay, I'm going to do a launch like this, it works for so many people and you do it and it doesn't really work, then it could be easy to be like, well, you know, PLF just doesn't work for me.
Well, there's, it's just so much more complicated than that. Maybe maybe video one was horrible. Maybe video three was horrible. Maybe there was something in, in one of the emails between like, there's just so many factors involved to where to where you can't just blanket say PLF, it doesn't work for me. There may, there may be a lot more to it than that.
David Krohse: Exactly. But yeah, I mean, the reason that this is really easy to get in that mindset is like you're wasted money. I mean, it's painful when you spent money on a marketing strategy. Invested a bunch of time and it didn't work. Essentially implementing and getting around this.
I mean, the top thing is just studying the best practices, so whether that's funnel hacking, Facebook ads is something that a lot of people like, they'll try it and they're like, it didn't work. There's a website called big spy.com that's . B, I G S P y.com and essentially with that, you can get on that website.
You type in like jockey would, you would type in, you know, learn piano and see what all the other people, what all the other Facebook ads are around the world that target that particular search term. So you can research other people's ads. And then the biggest thing with the Facebook ads is you're looking for ads that have tons of comments and likes and shares, and then you want to model after that.
The other thing I would say is that especially with the marketing, if you try some marketing, you have to realize that it takes repetition for people to take action. And so if you go into marketing and you do do just a a week trial or a month trial of Facebook ads, you need that retargeting. You really need to research and learn about retargeting because people might see your ad, but just like jock was talking about with your new Instagram star, that's your fan. What was her name?
Jacques Hopkins: Marley. Jack Marley jacks.
David Krohse: Yeah, four years. So you want to get them on your list is ideal, but if you don't have them on your list, you want them to see your Facebook ads for a little while and you do that through retargeting.
Jacques Hopkins: Very true. If I could offer one more example, it just came to mind about, about, you know, trying something and just blanket saying it's doesn't work for me. I had that attitude with Google ads at the time it was called Google ad words, and I just felt like Google ads would be good for me and my business because people are constantly searching for terms around learning piano, whereas a Facebook ads are more interruptive and you're not, you're not. It just seems like a perfect match when if somebody's searching, how do I learn piano or how do I learn piano quickly for me to have an ad up there and I didn't truly understand Google ads at first, I thought.
You could just put like one ad and target one search term and, and I wasn't getting a positive ROI. And so I just throw up my hands and say, Google ads is can't work for me. It's never going to work for me. Well, in reality, I just wasn't doing it right. And it wasn't until I actually learned how to do Google ads and then eventually outsource it that Google ads actually did work for me. It's just that I wasn't doing it right.
David Krohse: Yeah. And my last part of implementing that is it goes along with that. Exactly. But if you do a marketing thing and it doesn't work, it could be that your price point is too low, too low for you to actually get the return on investment. So if you feel like that's going on at all, you've got to go back and listen to that last episode.
But you know, you have to have a price point high enough to justify the ad spend. Our next mindset, the beneficial mindset is that hiring, hiring employees and outsourcing to contractors can free up my time. For what is really important and create better results than if you did it alone. Poor one. The poor ones would be, I tried hiring someone and it just didn't work and or it would be if I outsource, I lose control and I don't have trust in other people to do things right. So what's your take on that?
Jacques Hopkins: Well, when, when I go on other podcasts and people, people are interviewing me and if they asked the question like, what, what would you have done differently? What would you have started sooner? I almost always will say outsourcing, right? Cause I, I, it took me a while to do, it took me awhile to trust other people to work inside of my business, but once I started doing it and getting positive results for it.
For it. I mean, as many of you know, I'm, I'm kind of addicted to it because it can be so, so powerful. I think the biggest, the biggest thing I hear from people is like, trust. Giving, letting other people, you know, put their hands inside of your business and actually trusting people when in reality, if you, if you do it right and you find the right people, then they're going to do certain things way better than you could've ever done.
You know, like Emily, Emily does so much for my business, my executive assistant, and like just take one small thing that she does. She does a lot. She does the show notes for this podcast, right? So this is, this is episode 127 and so you're going to be able to go to the show notes, the online course, guide.com/one two seven and she, she'll write that top to bottom.
She's fully responsible for that at this point. And I'm not a writer, like my sh, you should see my show notes for this episode would be like, Hey, we talked about mindset. You know, me and David had a good time. You're going to enjoy it by John. Like that's what my show notes would be like. And Scherzer thoughts show thorough.
She puts timestamps in there, this and that. So she does a far better job with it. And then it also frees up my time to work on things that do need me, that I am actually good at. So those are the two big things about outsourcing is tip is typically somebody will be able to do it better and at the end of the day cheaper, because hopefully your time is more valuable spent elsewhere.
David Krohse: Yeah. And as somebody that, I've had a quite a few employees, but when an employee comes in and works for you and then they leave, a lot of times they leave in a way that like hurts, hurts. I mean like trusting somebody and then having them leave. It leaves scars. You often feel lied to, cheated stolen from.
I admit that I, at various times I've fallen into a mindset of more staff, more problems. I encourage people just to get over that. I will say that from a mindset perspective, you should recognize that having great employees start with, with being a great boss. You've mentioned the the book good to great by Jim Collins.
Jacques Hopkins: Right.
David Krohse: My favorite one on that in that book is this window in the mirror analogy. So again, this book, they, they interviewed all these like 16 CEOs of companies that by far outperform the moment, the market, and they found out what they had in common. They found that a lot of them do. This window in the mirror philosophy is what it says, and it says.
When great CEOs, when their companies are doing great, they look through the window and they say like, of course we're doing great. Look at all the people around me. When things are going poorly, they look in the mirror and they say, how am I not leading this ship? Right? Like, what am I doing wrong and how can I be a better. Better leader of this company. So I do have like five rules for myself as the business owner. Would you like to hear them?
Jacques Hopkins: Oh yeah, that's, that's great. I love, I read good to great. Years ago, back when I was working, I thought I was going to go up the corporate ladder and I want to share a different anecdote from that book I had forgotten about the one you just shared.
So that's really great with minor, and I'd love to hear these five things because you, you have an interesting perspective, David. I mean, you've got an online course business, but you've also got an in-person chiropractic business and you've got. You don't have people working for you, they're your brick and mortar store.
David Krohse: Exactly. And I'm not sure exactly how a course creator would implement these with somebody that's across the world. So yeah, these are five rules. The first rule is the manager's job is to give clear expectations. The employee, the employee's job is not to make the manager and nag. And so I know that sometimes employees feel like bosses want to nag, you know, it's like, and then sometimes managers feel like, feel like they have to nag all the time.
It's like. If you have an employee that's not getting something done, like start by looking and seeing if you've given them clear enough expectations. And then I actually let my employees know, I'm like, I never want to nag you about this. Like rule number two is fixed systems, not people. And so this should go along with Jack with his project manager role, but essentially, let's say there's something that I asked my employee to do here at my office, and it's not getting done.
Rather than coming to her and saying, why aren't you doing this? I come to her and I say, okay, there's this thing that's super important. We need to do it every day. What is the system that we can put together where this gets done every single day and again, way less confrontational and we work together and sometimes it involves post it notes.
Sometimes it's an old school, old school solution, and sometimes it's something more technology based. Rule number three is don't be like Michael Scott. Are you off the office fan at all?
Jacques Hopkins: Oh, sure. Yeah, absolutely.
David Krohse: Oh my gosh. Like this one, it doesn't come up all the time, but the one that I remember, so I hired this young lady and she was like a national champion swimmer down at Drury college in Missouri. At the time. We would do these promotions. Where if somebody wanted to come in as a new patient in my office, they would basically be able to donate money to a good cause and then we'd do a discount initial workup. I came up with this idea and it was this, this young lady, and I was like happy, like let's have a swim race.
And then all the patients can like basically bet money on who's going to win and what the time is going to be with a $5 donation to special Olympics. And when I first brought it up to her, she was laughing, seemed like it was a good idea. And then I was like, all right, so let's schedule our R, our 200 I am individual medley swim race.
And she was just kind of acting like she didn't want to do it. And so I started harassing her. I'm like, come on, what are you chicken? All of a sudden I looked in the mirror. I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is Michael Scott. Big time. Like it was an episode. So anyways, I went to her. As soon as I realized that I went to her and I said, listen, like.
You know, when I first mentioned this, you seemed like you thought it sounded fun. Now you're not really seeming like you want to do this. What's the deal. And she said, you know, I just feel like I'm too slow. Like I would be, you know, half as fast as my college times. And she says that would drive me bonkers.
And so I was like, all right, if you want me to never mention this again, I won't mention it. And she was like, I really don't want to do it. And so they'll be like, Michael Scott, if it feels like a the office episode, just stop. Number four is say thank you a lot. And, and, and in the way most meaningful to each employee.
So I love the book, the five love languages. We did an entire episode on that. But you can also ask your employees, how do you like to be thanked? Just ask them point blank when you hire a new person. My wife got a job at this hospital and they put that on her initial paperwork. She wrote down dark chocolate, covered espresso beans and kombucha and so.
Jacques Hopkins: Nice.
David Krohse: You would think that people like to be thanked with more money, but honestly, my wife is not driven by money. I mean, she'd rather have some kombucha and some dark chocolate espresso beans. So you don't know unless you ask.
Jacques Hopkins: That sounds like a good combination. I could go for those right now.
David Krohse: Number five is don't hire an EOR and try to turn them into a Tigger. Hire a Tigger and watch them bounce. So, I mean, the reality is that there's no amount of bonus or profit sharing that will turn like a donkey into a thoroughbred. I mean, you want somebody that, that is excited about your mission and your cause. Interview questions that could help you figure that out.
It's like, what's your favorite thing to do on your time off and just see if they're passionate. See if they're passionate about anything. And what are you most passionate about? Why do you want to work here? Personally, I want people that are excited about the mission of my, my, my office or my course, so.
Jacques Hopkins: Love it, man. Those are, those are really good. I like the one, especially about systems because I've noticed that. When somebody I work with maybe didn't deliver exactly what I wanted. A lot of the times it wasn't them. It was either the system or my original direction or instructions. And so a lot of times I'll, I'll just have to go back and tweak my system and, and then things are better, but yeah.
Cool. Listen, man, I appreciate you sharing that. okay. Where are we in this process?
David Krohse: So we can go ahead and jump up, jump up to number eight is. My true fans who are likely to enroll, want to hear from me regularly. I'm a poor mindset, would be sending emails more frequently than monthly will feel like spam as far as why people feel that way.
I mean, some of us get emails from people that were not thoroughly involved and excited about what they are talking about and we have, we have some deep seated fears that we would fall into the annoying category and people's lives essentially. I would say that, you know, you have to remember that people have an unsubscribed button, so if they're on your list, they want to hear from you.
A funny story, recently, my buddy, my buddy Sean, he was doing online dating and he met this girl on Bumble, which is apparently the very popular new online dating app. I was like, sort of, is she into you or are you guys dating or what? And he's like, ah, we hang out and we hang out alone, but I can't really tell.
And I was like. You guys text and stuff and he's like, yeah, and I was like, Sean. I was like, I was like, you met her on Bumble, you guys are hanging out one on one. I'm like, she, she's single. I'm like, all all, all signs point to that. You know, she'd be interested in dating you. And so I was giving him tips.
I'm like, you know, next time you want to hang out, just say, Hey, can I take you on a real date? Anyways, he had been friends zoned. I feel like sometimes people sign up to our list and we're kind of like, well, I don't know. Like do they want to hear from me? It's like all signs point to yes, right. I mean, they signed up for your list.
They have interest, and if you don't send emails on a somewhat regular base, then you risk. Risk them losing interest. Just like when somebody kind of gets friends zone and then it just goes away entirely.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. I don't get my healing. My feelings hurt in the least. If somebody unsubscribes for my emails, in fact, I want to be polarizing. I want people to either buy or unsubscribe, right? Because I, you know, you pay money for the amount of people that are on your email list. And so when somebody first signs up for like in piano in 21 days, in the first two weeks. They're going to get probably more than 14 emails and so I'm okay with people on subscribing cause they probably weren't going to buy anyway.
What are, what I really don't like is the people that are like, come on dude, like stop sending me so many emails. It's like, you know, you come on dude, if you don't like the way that I'm doing things. Unsubscribe. It's so easy. And so we've gotten to a point in the business where if, if anybody complains to a certain level, we'll just manually unsubscribe them and not even reply.
Right. There was a point where I would like come back and then, and be like, dude, if you don't like this, just unsubscribed. But now we just manually do it and then once they get through that initial launch period, then it is more like somewhere between weekly and monthly. But that's the thing. It's like.
People, people have the ability to unsubscribe if you're doing it too much, but you also want to make sure that you are sending the right type of stuff, the right type of stuff for your audience. Because I've been on so many other people's email lists and almost everybody, I eventually will unsubscribe for one reason or another.
But just to give you an example, you know, I've, I think I've been on Pat Flynn's email list for, for seven years because I just think he does things so, right. And so there are certain ways you can do things to where you've got fans for life.
David Krohse: How often do you get an email from Pat Flynn?
Jacques Hopkins: Pretty much once a week. He's got this weekly digest where he'll send out, okay, there was this podcast episode. Oh, he's got, I guess he's got multiple podcasts, so we will kind of summarize the different podcast episodes that came out. That's that week, what's been going on that week, but then you'll get additional emails when he's promoting certain things as well. I can only imagine how big his email list is, but it's minimum once a week.
David Krohse: Yeah, if you, so if a course creator was out there and they're like, Oh man, I don't want to jump up to once a week, I might annoy my people at some point I opted into this guy named Ted McGrath, his email list. And I mean it's like daily or every other day. And for some reason I just stay, I stay on his list cause I'm like, Oh, I'll watch the subject lines. And it just kinda cracks me up how much he sends out. But. You know, apparently it works for him. I don't read the actual emails. I don't know, but yeah. Do you have anybody else that you've opted into that you're like, Oh my gosh, this is a lot of emails.
Jacques Hopkins: A lot of emails. I don't know because I like, I am super clean with my emails in my email inbox, so if it gets overwhelming and I just can't keep up, then I'll just unsubscribe. But like I'm, I'm big on that. So at this point, no, certainly not because, cause if, if that were the case, I would've already had subscribed.
David Krohse: Okay. One of the last ones here is I will never run out of people to buy my course. Poor mindset would be, eventually I will run out of people that will buy my course. So that was.
Jacques Hopkins: I like this one. I think I added this one to the list, David, because I think it was. Somebody told me this years ago, like maybe my mom or something, and they were like, you know, eventually you're going to like run out of people to be able to market to and that would actually be able to buy your course.
And I've heard other people mention that. I knew, I think Caitlin Pyle mentioned that on, on when I interviewed her on the podcast. It's like people have told her that before, but in reality, that that is a scarcity mindset, right? And because we have. A global economy. We're teaching through the internet, like there's, there's literally no limit, right?
If you lived, if you're a chiropractor and you're in a town of six people, there's a limit in there, right? There's a limit to how many people you can serve, how many customers you can have, but since you have a course that is, I guess, I guess your courses is national and not global, is that right?
David Krohse: No, it is global.
Jacques Hopkins: It is global.
David Krohse: I have two enrollments in Australia and one in Canada.
Jacques Hopkins: I remember, I remember when you got your first international software. I forgot about that. Yeah, no doubt. Okay, so both of us have global audiences, like there's a constant stream of people entering, like for me, for piano, there's a concentration, but people entering like the want to learn piano and there's, there's, there's people exiting that as well.
And there's, you know, obviously always people being born and this and that, like I'm literally never going to run out of students. Like it's just fact, it's not going to happen.
David Krohse: And I mean, along that same line, I mean like there is room for more than one course to have success, especially when you do look at it from a global perspective. I mean, what's across the street from every McDonald's.
Jacques Hopkins: Another fast food restaurant.
David Krohse: Yeah. Burger King, like, I mean, it's really true. So multiple, multiple courses can have success. So yeah, I definitely have that prosperity mindset and opportunity. The opportunities are out there. So yeah, I think that's all that we had.
I would just say like with these two mindset episodes, you know, if any of these help help you, like reach out to and let us know if there was something that we said that helped you, that feedback months or years down the road from when we record this. I know that if something I said helps you, like just hearing that from you would make my day.
And I think jock, I mean, when people send you little notes. It's like, is that still an exciting thing if they let you know there there is, or do you just get so many messages that it means nothing at this point?
Jacques Hopkins: Oh man. The thank you's are just overwhelming at this point, David. No, man, that is, that is one of my favorite things. If not the, my favorite, most favorite thing, whether it's from my piano. Lessons or from, from this podcast, the online course training, just love people letting me know how anything that I was involved with had an impact on their lives. I mean, that's at the end of the day, what, what motivates me the most to, to keep going.
So, yeah, I appreciate that reminder. You know, if, if, if what we're, what we're doing here is helping, you know, let us know we'd appreciate that as well. And don't, don't just let me know, you know, let David know too, he, he shared, you know, more value than I did in this episode in these past two episodes. So.
on that note, I mean, obviously people can get in touch with both of us in the Facebook group that we have the online course community Facebook group. And by the way, if you're listening out there and you're not a part of that group, we want you there. It's a fun group to be a part of and it's totally free. But David w, how do people get in touch with, with you if they want to?
David Krohse: I would say just find me on Facebook. You know, we've talked about it, but I have a little bit of an addiction. Send me a note. I'll write you back in like 30 seconds.
Jacques Hopkins: David Crosy, K R. O. H S E.
David Krohse: Rhymes with cozy. That's what we tell people here in my office. They get to Chauncey crazy.
Jacques Hopkins: There you go. Very cool. All right David. Well, thank you so much for this topic. They got mentioned it maybe in the last episode, but this was your idea. This was your topic and I think it was, a really good one. You obviously came very prepared with, a lot of helpful information.
Before we get outta here, I mentioned one more anecdote from, from good to great that I wanted to share that went along with what we were talking about a few minutes earlier. And I just. Thought of it. Wanted to mention that before we get out of here, and that was one thing he mentioned in that book is you want to.
It's a, he uses a metaphor or analogy of a bus and you want to get the right people on the bus before you figure out what, what the, where the bus is going. So what he's saying is it's more important to have the right people then figuring out exactly what those people are going to help you do or the direction your company is going.
He's just. Emphasizing how important the right people for you and your business is. And I love that analogy. I've probably shared it on the podcast before, but that was one of my biggest takeaways from that book. But I, I'd forgotten about the mirror thing and I really liked that as well.
David Krohse: Yeah, and you did, I think you have an episode where you interviewed, Emily talked about hiring and outsourcing. So in the show notes, Emily, you should add that that episode number, because if anybody. Wants to know how to find a really great employee. It's a course creator. I think that was that the episode that was most probably most beneficial.
Jacques Hopkins: Maybe. So, yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll link to that episode in the show notes. I'm not sure which number it was at this point, but yeah, Emily's is obviously listening to this and she'll put those in the show notes. And Emily, you're doing a fantastic job. I appreciate you very much Fred's editing this episode. You're doing an amazing job too. Thank you so much guys. Those are the main two people that work for me. On a daily basis.
So, and David, thank you as well. Not that you actually worked for me, but you are a part of this as well. Thank you so much. So that's going to do it. Thank you everybody out there listening. once again for all the show notes for this episode, you can find those at the online course, guy.com/one 27 a mission.
I mentioned that Facebook group where a lot of listeners are hanging out and a lot of. Past podcast guests, frankly, are there as well. That is the online course community. You can search that on Facebook or go to the online course guy.com click on community at the top. It'll take you right there. In fact, in the menu on the online course, guy.com I think that's the first one because to me, that's one of the most important things here is the community.
And if this is your first time listening to the podcast and definitely check out. Well, there's part one of this, of this two part series, so check out one 26 and then maybe after that and go to episode 89 because that's our online courses one Oh one episode.
Thanks again everyone. We'll talk next week.
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