Spoiler alert: this episode involves money, wine, and some big ups and downs to go along with that! Bobby Hoyt was our guest and he is not called the Millenial Money Man for nothing. We had a super-fun conversation and I think there is a lot to be learned here no matter how much online course experience you do or don’t have.

“It was the right product for the right audience at the right time.”

– Bobby Hoyt

I had a great time chatting with Bobby and hearing his insights into what it takes to run a successful online course and more.

In This Episode, We Talked About: 

  • (2:32) Why David thought today’s guest would be the perfect interviewee for our podcast
  • (3:46) An update on my Amazon affiliate issues
  • (4:37) How is David’s business and course creation process going during the current pandemic?
  • (6:54) Thoughts on keeping podcast content evergreen despite world events and what my Facebook live sessions accomplish that the podcast can’t
  • (8:31) A minor glitch while jumping into the interview
  • (9:16) How Bobby got started with online courses
  • (13:12) Instant success vs. the more common reality
  • (14:24) Why Bobby stopped putting out income reports
  • (16:02) His current course offerings and number of students
  • (19:23) How important is income diversification?
  • (21:04) Bobby’s story about quitting his teaching job
  • (23:36) Thinking through the big decision
  • (25:17) The thrill of a successful first launch and a special bottle of wine
  • (30:43) A disclaimer and a discussion of Bobby’s early conversion rates
  • (32:46) Struggles along the way
  • (34:56) Having a partner vs. working alone
  • (36:21) The most stressful aspects of running an online course without support
  • (39:41) Bobby’s favorite perk of having a successful course business
  • (41:08) The top tools Bobby uses
  • (43:33) His advice for aspiring course creators
  • (44:20) Where to find more info from Bobby and his wife
  • (45:59) David and I discuss our favorite moments from the interview
  • (47:47) Ups and downs for online course businesses
  • (51:24) How I handle certain tasks and how I may outsource them in the future
  • (53:05) Thinking through when different people may decide to quit their dayjob
  • (55:22) Wrapping up

That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.

Jacques Hopkins: ClickFunnels is one of the top tools in my online course businesses, arsenal, and not only do I want you to use it too, but I want to empower you. When you do. Sign up for click funnels at the online course, guy.com/click and you'll get all my templates I'm currently using, including my brand new, amazing evergreen webinar template, as well as my training on how to best use click funnels as a course creator.

Sign up for a free trial. Now try it out for yourself to see how great it is and get my templates and training. For free by going to the online course, guy.com/click. This episode is also brought to you by deadline funnel. I'm actually hard pressed to find a successful course creator these days that isn't using deadline funnel because of how great it is for creating authentic deadlines with funnels, whether live or evergreen.

The online course show listeners can get an extended free trial of deadline funnel by going to deadline funnel.com/o C G. Now, let's get on with episode one 28 where the millennial money man stops by Bobby Hoyt to talk about his business and his courses, and spoiler alert, he has an amazing story to share about a particular bottle of wine he purchased during one of his launches.

Let's go. Regular people are taking their knowledge in content, packaging it up in an online course, and they're making a living doing. But not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way, and I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses.

Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins, and this is the online course show.

And off we go. Welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. This is the online course show. I'm your host Shak Hopkins, and here with us is our cohost David. Cozy.

David Krohse: Hey, what's up.

Jacques Hopkins: And we're excited to dive into all things online courses with you today. David, welcome to one 28 feature in the millennial money, man.

David Krohse: Thank you. I love this episode. I think, I think the listeners are going to love it too.

Jacques Hopkins: It was a super fun conversation. I wasn't super familiar with him. Bobby Hawaii. Of millennial money, man.com before, before looking, you know, doing a little research and actually having this conversation with him.

Obviously I'm a big fan now, you know, really a really cool guy. Fun to get to know him. I think you, you've, you're actually familiar with them already. You, I remember you mentioned his name a few episodes back and I was like, Oh, I think I'm actually about to interview that guy. What do you, what did you know about him. Beforehand, how did you get introduced to his world?

David Krohse: Sure. Well, I'm not sure exactly to be honest, but I mean, I listened to Dave Ramsey that got me completely out of debt, listen to choose FYI. But I think, I think before I found choose FII, so probably back in 2018 you know, I came across this millennial money man and just started following the Facebook page and at some point I got on his email list too.

The interesting thing, like I only associated with his millennial money brand, which in this, in the interview. You know, listeners will hear he, he has a lot more going on than the millennial money man. But I mean, I just saw various Facebook posts that I thought were funny, you know, questions about, you know, when should somebody sell a car or this or that about, about saving money from a millennial's perspective and, and just, just purely watch that brand.

And then again, my wife. And decided to start a blog, and I had her sign up for the blog through through Bobby's affiliate program for that. So I've, I've enjoyed his posts, but I'm actually interested in learning more about the kind of Facebook ad side of his business as well after listening to the episode or the interview.

Jacques Hopkins: Really, really cool. So we'll get into that. Here shortly. I just want to kind of update the audience on one small situation. I think I mentioned last week that I had this little issue with my Amazon affiliate stuff. In fact, you'll hear in this, in this interview with Bobby, we talked a little bit about affiliate gum, but I mentioned last week on the episode how.

You know, stupidly, I have not been getting paid from Amazon for the past a year, and it was just, it was just a mistake on my side. I was overlooking it every single month for, for basically 12 months. Well, as of yesterday morning, they did Amazon deposited $9,000 into my bank account. So big shout out to Amazon because their customer support was actually very, very good to work with. And they moved very, very quickly in, in, you know, getting all that together and putting it up in my bank account.

David Krohse: Awesome.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, so that's really cool. What's going on on your side, man? Anything worth mentioning before we jump into this, this conversation with Bobby?

David Krohse: Well, I'm going to be honest with you, we're recording this on March 31st also known as March 97th and this has been the longest month of my life. And so again, I have a chiropractic office. My, my number of patients that I'm seeing, we are still open. We're trying to do all the steps that we can to keep everything sanitary. But that cut in half. The thing is like I'm not as stressed as I should be, and that's because I listened to Dave Ramsey and people like the millennial money man and say, Hey, let's get out of debt.

Let's, let's start to actually pay attention to money. And so my wife and I came into this crisis with a pretty healthy emergency fund as far as working on the course, I'll admit, I feel like I could have been more productive. I spent more time just looking at these nasty news stories than I should have.

But I am pretty excited. I recorded this final video that's going to go into an actual course for potential patients. So my plan is that people around the community with sign up for this course and it would go out drip style with like an email every other day or every other every third day. Also, yeah, essentially ready to, to get my, my course for other businesses, other chiropractors set up with deadline funnel.

And when I was thinking of using deadline funnel, I was thinking of using it only for my course for other businesses. But I was thinking this morning, I listened to your webinar about your new webinar. I have this specialized service in my office and I'm like, I'm totally gonna use JOC system for that.

So. It's, it's perfect for it and just to get people around the community to watch the webinar and in through your system. So yeah, excited and very optimistic. I basically, this morning I was like, I'm going to get all three of these things. I'm going to get my drip course ready. I'm going to get my course for chiropractors set on up on deadline funnel and get a webinar with deadline funnel set up by the end of, by the end of April, and hopefully come out of this thing stronger.

Jacques Hopkins: Awesome. That sounds like a great plan. If anybody's wondering like what, what system is David talking about there? We'll go back to episode one 25 I talk all about my, my new way that I'm doing evergreen webinars and I just can't be more pleased with the way it turned out. So episode one 25 for how I'm now doing ever green webinars to sell my piano course.

So all good updates, man. Well, I mean, for the most part, obviously we have a global pandemic going on here and. As you mentioned, we record these Tuesday episodes in advance, right? And they're not, they're not as evergreen. So this episode will actually come out in about three weeks from now. So late, late April, this episode will actually come out.

I'm sure we'll still be dealing with a lot of the same stuff, but for the most part, you know, just so the audience knows, we try to. Try to stay away from kind of current events and things because we do record ahead of time, but that's one of the reasons that I enjoy dropping in the Friday Facebook live audio into the podcast feed, because that is live.

So if you're not aware, I go and do a Facebook live every day. Friday morning. It's called the Friday morning ice coffee Q and a was Jacques. I just grabbed my morning ice coffee, turn on the camera, turn on the Facebook live and see what you guys, the audience wants to talk about what questions you might have for me.

And what I've been doing is just taking, extracting the audio from those and dropping it into the podcast feed because they are, we do. We do talk about, talk about current events, talk about current things that are happening in our businesses and in the world. So there's far more conversation around coronavirus and the pandemic and stuff on the Friday episodes. Then there are on the Tuesday episodes. So I think you've been attending a few of those here and there. David, you, you, you're enjoying the, the Friday Facebook lives.

David Krohse: Yeah. Typically I jump in for about five minutes of the live and then I come back and listen to the podcast later and enjoy, enjoy the conversation. It's been great.

Jacques Hopkins: Awesome. Thanks so much. All right, well, without further ado, I'm really excited about this conversation with Bobby Hoyt, the millennial money man. So let's get into it. One very small disclaimer here. I, you know, I mentioned this, the stupidity I had with the Amazon affiliate stuff earlier.

I'm not perfect, and our hit record on this conversation with Bobby about 20 seconds later than I should have. So you're going to. We're going to jump into it with him kind of in the middle of of a sentence and what you missed. What you're going to miss is me saying, Hey, Bobby, welcome to the online course show.

And he says, Hey, Jack, you're the greatest, and I'm just kidding each. He just says thanks. And then, and then I ask him the question, how did you, you know, I just kind of. Say, you know, Bobby, you've got a lot of things going on out there. You've got more than just courses, but let's start by how did you get into all nine courses specifically?

And then we're going to jump into that conversation right when he starts answering that question. So without further ado, here's the conversation between me and Bobby Hoyt.

Bobby Hoyt: Back in 20. 2015 really that it's just a personal finance blog, and I've been running it for the last five going on, and I guess six years now. In the beginning it was just all personal finance content, just all blogging, personal finance content, kind of a personal brand. And then. In 20, late 2017 I was starting to think about my first course and I was like, you know what? Like I see all these people getting rich with courses and I was like, I want to do that too.

And, and kind of on the side, I had been doing marketing work cause the way it all kind of worked out, I actually quit my, I used to be a band director. And I had quit my teaching job, after I made a few dollars, I literally, after I made $3 with millennial money, man, but I was like, so like wanting to work online and everything.

So I quit my job, started running the blog, and then I was like, totally not making money. So, I had to start doing digital marketing work actually for the jeweler that did my wife's engagement ring that we kind of worked it out. And he was like, Hey, I'll hire you to do the marketing stuff. So I did that.

So I had that skillset. And so then, you know, 2017 I was kind of coming into like, okay, I want to start a course. People in my audience want to make more money. They want to know how to make more money. And I think the digital marketing thing is a good way to do that. So I started, I started putting that course together as my first course ever.

I didn't know what I was doing at all, and I was just like loading it up with everything. It was like email marketing and local SEO and just tons and tons and tons of crap in there. And then eventually I called a good buddy of mine named Mike Yonda. He runs a Facebook ad agency and we had both done Facebook ads and new, you know, Facebook ads pretty well.

And so I would just kind of, we're talking back and forth and I was like, dude, what? Like, what do you think I need to put in this course about Facebook ads? Like what. Like what components, you know, what things should I cover? He was like, man, why don't you just make the course all about Facebook ads? Like, why are you adding all this other stuff?

Like it's too much? And I was like, Hmm, yeah, I'll think about it. And I got off the phone with him is around Thanksgiving. About a week later, I kinda was like, you know, that sounds like a cool idea. I called him back and I was like, dude, let's, let's do this course. Like, let's do it together. We'll just call it like the Facebook side hustle course.

We launched it in 2018, January, 2018 and we did, I think it was $132,000 of revenue in our first weekend. And so then it was like, it was like off to the races. From there, we started laptop empires together and, that's basically info products is our. Our main revenue source for that business, and so we've been doing that ever since.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. You said you, you saw people getting rich with courses and it was obviously pretty much an instant success for you guys with courses as well. Who are some of those people back in 2017 that you were seeing quote unquote, get rich with courses?

Bobby Hoyt: You know, one of the big, I remember like seeing Pat Flynn doing a lot of core sales, Michelle Schroeder Gardner from making sense of sins.com was doing really well with her affiliate marketing course. Man. I think those were the two big ones that I was like, man, these people are really, there was probably more, there was just, there are so many people that I saw that were like the bigger names in the, at least the personal finance space specifically, that had a course. And it was like, it seemed like they went from, you know, good revenue to crazy revenue overnight.

And, and I know it's, you know. Even that story I just told like it seems like that's the way it happens, but it's really not normally that way. Like most people don't just launch a course and it like completely crushes. I actually like on a side note that make money marketing course was the first one I was doing that I had kind of talked to Mike about and I pulled the plug on that course.

I still had people on the wait list that wanted to buy it, but I only made $4,000 from that course because it was like, I felt like the Facebook side also one was a lot. Better. And we, we promoted that one, but my first core is actually kind of flopped. So it wasn't, it wasn't like it was like some kind of, you know, first try just totally knocked it out of the park. But yeah, those were kind of the people that I was, I was thinking about specifically at that time.

Jacques Hopkins: Well, those, both of those people, I mean, Michelle Schroeder, Gardner PatFlynn, both are very transparent with their numbers and what they're doing in their business. So. You can, you could definitely see like they'll, they'll put out, like, I launched this course and this is, this is how much I did.

Now listeners, this podcast will know that when I first launched my piano course way back in 2013 like it was not an instant success for me either. And I think, you know, you tell me if you agree, but it seems like the people that are an instant success with courses specifically had done a really great job at building their audience first. Right? Those two people you've mentioned already. I already had massive audiences to be able to launch their course too, right?

Bobby Hoyt: Yeah. And that, and that's really what comes down to for the success that we had initially with the Facebook side, is of course it was like, you know, it wasn't just that weekend that we launched and made all that money. It was the years that I had spent building up an email list and an audience with millennial money, man, before that. So they had enough trust. To pay for this thing. Right? So like that's, that's a huge component of it. Just building the audience. Same thing like Michelle Schroeder, like she had been building an audience for years and in that point, obviously.

So that's, I think probably the biggest thing that people overlook. Which is easy to do. Cause when people put out income, I use put out an income reports just like the both, both of them. And it, it, my revenue went from like 13,000 in one month to 150,000 or whatever. So it was like, it seems like it's just an instant get rich quick thing and put out a course and you crush it. But it was years, you know, it was years of warming up an audience before that.

Jacques Hopkins: Sure. So you said you used to put out income reports. Why is that something that you would have stopped.

Bobby Hoyt: You know, to be completely honest with you, I stopped those, I think two years ago. They were just taking too long like they were getting, it gets to the point where you're like, okay, do I want to tell people how much money I'm making or do I want to just put in the work to go make more money?

Because those things were starting to take hours and hours to put together. And I mean, it's a good problem to have, I guess with, you know, going like, okay, where's all the revenue coming from and, and doing all that, you need to do that in your business anyway. But I, it was that it was too much work. And I had two businesses.

I was running millennial money, man and laptop empires at that point. And then I also just didn't feel like they were a good fit for my personal finance audience anymore because like the vast majority of people, you know, especially when they started seeing the numbers that were getting kind of bigger, it was like, they kind of were like, okay, I don't really care about this.

I just want budgeting information. And like, you know, I don't want to see these like unrealistic numbers for me. And so that was, that was a big part of it. And, I'm really glad that I stopped doing them because it just freed up so much of my time. You know? I felt like I was always like chasing the numbers, you know?

I was always like, I gotta beat last month. I've gotta beat last month. And since I stopped doing them, it's been more just like, how can I make my business better? You know? And not necessarily worrying about like how much money I'm making and how much people think I'm, you know, like, am I being more successful? And all this kind of stuff. Like I just didn't, it didn't really fit the business anymore.

Jacques Hopkins: That's an interesting perspective cause you, you, you see like Pat Flynn putting out income reports, John Lee Dumas, I think it was as one of the things he kind of was made famous for ya. How quickly he got up to like six figures per month that he was put out as income reports and whatnot.

So it's interesting to hear why you. Stop doing that, and it's like, well, to do it right. It was just taken too much time when I could have spent that time better elsewhere. Back to like your, your core, the courses that you do have at this point where we are, you know, early 2020 what is your current course offering? What courses do you have out there for people to buy?

Bobby Hoyt: Yeah, so we, right now we have the, the Facebook side hustle course, which teaches people local ads for, or I'm sorry, Facebook ads for local businesses. And that that's like our flagship. We have the Facebook ads for bloggers course, which is really more of like a Facebook ads for, you know, coaches and online business owners.

It covers a lot of them. More in depth. Like traffic campaigns and retargeting for core sales and lead generation. Like it's just a lot of the, the more in depth things that online business owners need from Facebook ads. And then we've actually hasn't launched yet, but we've got an email, we've got an email marketing course coming out, and then we also have a client acquisition course for freelancers, like how to go out and get clients.

So we've got a lot of things in the works. So there's the courses and then kind of the central part of the entire business for laptop empires is that we have a coaching. And support community. And it's a, it's on the back end of the courses, but it's $47 a month. So that's kind of like our, it's a recurring revenue stream for us.

It's kind of the engine of the business. You know, people, the way it works is people buy our courses, they get 30 days for free in that community, and then it, it auto bills for $47 but we have, we've hired coaches, so we've got three coaches in there that helps students. We've got a community manager, we've got a support person.

And then Mike and Mike and I are in there doing live trainings every week. So it's, we try to make it a kind of a premium. Experience and support experience, rather than just having a free course. We just wanted something that was going to be a little bit more in depth and really help people to kind of implement the course material. So that's kind of, that's kind of what we offer now, and I'm sure there's going to be more in the future, but that's kind of where we're at for 2020.

Jacques Hopkins: So just to get an idea of, of, of how big this is, I mean, do you have any concept of how many people have ever signed up for your courses? How many students you have?

Bobby Hoyt: I want to say we're somewhere in the 4,000. I think we're in the 4,000 range.

Jacques Hopkins: Very nice. Very nice. Give virtual fist bump here. I just recently crossed over 4,000 students, myself and my piano course. So awesome to hear. Now you obviously have more going on than just courses, right? Can you just kind of ballpark for us, maybe around what percent of your revenue comes from courses and course related activities versus other things you've got going on.

Bobby Hoyt: Yeah. So I'd say the bulk of it right now is, you know, I'd say like 30 to 40% of what we do is probably just the recurring revenue group. And that's actually, we're going to expand that and make it its own product that you don't have to buy a course to get into. It's going to be more of an online business coaching community that's probably gonna be somewhere in the like $97 a month range, you know?

So there's that. And then the rest of it is kind of like core sales from a various courses. And then a smaller percentage that we're trying to make bigger right now is more affiliate income trying to round out. Round out the business. And you know, we do, we're, it's just like supporting elements like Thrivecart, you know, for example, that's what we use in our courses.

So we are, we're starting to promote that click funnels, you know, kinda like the popular ones. But those are things that we actually use in our everyday business. So we're trying to really make sure that we. Incorporate that, you know, both with paid traffic and organic traffic, and then also just offering those things to our current students and kind of continuing that kind of value add later on. So it's kind of, it's kind of a lot of different stuff, but you know, it's pretty cool.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, for sure. I mean, with, with my piano courses. Really the, you know, with piano in 21 days, the majority of the revenue comes from strictly core sales. The only affiliate income I get is from Amazon, just recommending pianos and keyboards to people. But with this side of the business, the online course guy and the online course show, almost all of my revenue comes from a affiliates like recommending, like, you know, click funnels and an active campaign and Bundoora and deadline funnel and all the things that I recommend to people. So I think that the combination of courses plus affiliates.

For the things that people would need to use the content of your courses. It was really important. But overall, how important do you think it is to diversify your income streams and maybe not just have it come from online course sales?

Bobby Hoyt: Well, I think it's, I think it's huge because what we've found in year one, it was very feast or famine, you know, with, with the course launches, we were basically launching the course, shutting it down, launching it, it, there were.

You know, sometimes you have great launches and then sometimes you don't have great launches and, and when you don't have a great launch, especially early on in your business, it feels like your business is falling apart. You're like, Oh my God, like it's over. You know? It's like, I'm not going to be able to sell this course anymore when really there's just so many different external factors.

Like, you know, maybe you launched the course on a, on a sports like NCAA March madness weekend or something and you didn't think about it when you're planning out the calendar. So for us that having the stability, I think of having, especially the recurring revenue from the group, we start every month now knowing what our monthly recurring revenue is going to be.

And so that, that allows us to go, okay, here are the things we can invest in. We want to do more, you know, Google ads, more Facebook ads. We want to build this element for the website so we can really, you know, kind of build the business, I think in a healthier way. But it takes time to get to that point. I mean, the first year it was like we were just kind of.

Hoping everything works out pretty well. And it did fortunately, but we've really tried to expand that to different revenue streams.

Jacques Hopkins: So I try to ask questions maybe you don't always get, but this next one I would imagine you get all the time, and you even alluded to it already, but tell me about this on your website. I saw where you said, I quit my teaching job after I made $3 in display ads from the site. Tell us about that.

Bobby Hoyt: So I started, the way that millennial money man started was that I, I paid off $40,000 of student loan debt while I was a teacher. And I was like, really? I didn't care about personal finance before that happened. You know, I was, I didn't really know anything about it, but as I started paying off my student loans, I got more and more into it and just kind of realized there's this whole like personal finance community and, and so I was like, okay, I want to start telling people about this because everybody, I was surrounded.

By like teachers, you know, they all have student loan debt, but they didn't know what to do with it. Nobody really had like a good idea of, of how to handle that. And so I was like, man, I really, I enjoy talking about this and writing about it. And so I just started doing it on the side and my day job. And I was at a point with teaching where I knew I didn't want to be a teacher anymore and I was kind of getting a little bit miserable.

And I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but I didn't exactly know how to get there yet. And so then, you know, about six months in to writing on the blog, I had been saving up money after I paid off my student loans. I just kept paying myself the same amount. And so I, I got to a point where I was like, okay, I think I have enough money to quit.

And so, you know, I went to my, she was my. Fiance at the time, but my wife now and I was just like, Hey, this was like a month or two before we got married. It was like very, very soon before we got married. And I was like, I think I'm going to quit my job. You know, like she's miserable. And she was like, cool, we'll like, we'll make it work.

And so I went in the next day and I quit my job and I, you know, you know, I'd only made a couple of dollars, but I was like really sure that I could do it full time for whatever reason. So there was a, you know, like I never tell people to do what I did cause I think it's a really stupid way to quit your job.

But I was just like at a point where I wanted to do it and I knew. I want it to be happy. You know what? I was not happy doing what I was doing at the time. So, so that was pretty much it. And for the first, like I said, several months, I didn't make any money. I was like totally freaking out and thought I was going to just like, I dunno, just go completely broke and everything.

But what happens when you put yourself in that situation? Did you start figuring out how to make money. You know, when you're scared, that's when you root, when your back's against the wall. And it's like when you really start trying to figure out how to make things work. And so I did, you know, over time, and then eventually a millennial money man was featured on CNBC, I think it was like September of 2016 and after that, like it all started to take off a little bit more. So it was more sustainable from that point.

Jacques Hopkins: Well, it sounds like you put a lot of things in place too, right? You weren't making the income that you wanted yet, but you, you know, you paid off debt and whatnot. And for me, you know, we, we had just had our first baby girl about four years ago and we had paid off our mortgage.

That was really important to us, and we had built up some savings. And for me, piano in 21 days was making about a thousand dollars a month. It wasn't enough for our. Our, our normal income. But that's the point in time where I decided, we decided that it's okay, now I can quit my job, focus on that and grow it.

But there's things that we put in place as well. So for those listening to this that may be, are working a full time job and don't know that point where that point is to actually pull the trigger and quit, you know, with all the year experience, where are you recommending people do that at this point?

Bobby Hoyt: I think I feel like the smart is so funny cause I used to have people that would email me and be like, Oh mommy, I saw your story. I'm quitting my job. And I'd be like, no, that was the worst thing. Like please don't do that. So for me, I think if you, I think if you are matching your salary for six months, like that's why I feel like that's the safe. Answer now the real safe. Yeah, it's super safe. Just because I'm, I'm honestly, I've had enough people that have actually quit their jobs like way too early that it scares me.

So I try to be in, I'm a personal finance writer, so I try to be like very, you know, safe on the amount of time. But I think realistically, if you have something that you feel like is. Sustainable and you feel like you've been making enough money to where if you put your full time into it, that you could expand it.

Like, you know, a lot of people are going to take that opportunity more like what you did, where it's like, Hey, I've been making money for X amount of months. Like if I had this thing full time, I could really blow it up. And that's what everybody runs into where there's just like, I don't know. I don't have enough time anymore in the day to like, you know, work on this thing and I need more time. So I think that's where like most people would probably pull the trigger and quit.

Jacques Hopkins: Very cool. So I usually like to, to ask people kind of about the, the what they were experiencing when they made their first online course sale. But you already told us a little bit about the, you know, the Facebook ads course where, you know, weekend, it kind of made over a hundred thousand dollars.

So maybe if, if, if the, just the very first sale is irrelevant, maybe tell us more about that launch and, and kind of if you have any stories about how, you know, your bank account was starting to blow up or anything about that. Give us some insight into that first lunch that, that six figure launch.

Bobby Hoyt: It was surreal, man. And, and it was one of those things where like I had been making pretty decent money with millennial money, man. I think I was making about $10,000 a month, about $10,000 a month net back then. So it wasn't like I was like struggling or anything like that. But when we first launched the course, I think the way that it all kind of played out was we, we had a wait list because I had told the millennial money man audience about the course and I kind of like gotten people hyped up.

And so we actually had like a hundred, I think we had. 900 people on the wait list for the course, but we had no idea how it was actually, because there's a big difference between getting people on a wait list and actually converting the sale. Right? Like, because people didn't even know how much it cost yet.

Like there was a whole, there's a whole lot of things that go into converting that sale, as you know. So we did the, we opened it up on Thursday. We did prelaunch Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday emails, and then we opened the cart on Thursday. And in the first day we did $25,000 I remember just like looking at the computer screen and I was like, Holy crap.

Like I've never seen numbers like that cause I was a teacher before I started doing this stuff. Like I'd never seen numbers like that. And then I think the next day we did like. 12,000 so we were freaking out like, Oh man, is it good? Is it dying? And then, and then the third day we did got, I remember it was more, it was, it was, it was like 20 something, almost $30,000.

And then the last day on the cart close day, we sent three emails out and it was like good sales on the first email, good sales in the second email. But we sent one at APM that was the actual cart close. And it was a very short email that was just like. This is it. This is the deadline. We're closing the doors and we probably did like $80,000 in like two hours or something.

And I, I was sitting there with my wife and we were just watching, like we were just watching the sales go up till midnight. And I remember very specifically it just being like, wow, our life has changed. Like this is, this is like, our reality is different now. And it was really, really surreal. And it was just like.

It was just something I never thought would actually happen, you know? So, so yeah, that was pretty much it. And I mean, my business partner and I had gone, it was really funny. We, we had gone out and bought, he was like, dude, we got to buy a nice bottle of wine to like celebrate. Like this was on the last day when the sales were still rolling in and I was so cheap back then.

Yeah, I was the most expensive bottle of wine I had had been like $10 back then, and he was like, dude, no, you got to like get something good. Like he wanted to get this bottle called Pappy on. It's actually on my desk right now. I looked at that bottle in the store for probably about 20 minutes, like, eh, I don't know.

Should I buy it? Should I not like, and then I looked at my phone and I had made like $5,000 from the time I had walked in from my car to like, I was like looking at the bottle of wine. So then I was like. Okay, I'll buy it, you know? And it was like, it was just this really like crazy experience. And not every launches is gone like that.

Totally upfront with that. I mean it's, we've had some that were not great, not great, some that were really good, but that was, it was definitely a life changing kind of experience because I just never thought you could make that much money. Like if from, from an info product and it couldn't have really gone much better than that. I think.

Jacques Hopkins: Perspective is, is really something, man, cause you're staring at this bottle of wine and it's like, gosh, should I pull the trigger or not? You look at your phone, it's like, well since I've walked in the store, I've made $5,000 what's the, what's, I don't think I've had that type of wine before. What was the price point on that ballpark?

Bobby Hoyt: It's like 55 bucks.

Jacques Hopkins: Come on.

Bobby Hoyt: I know. It's not even like, it's not even a really what I would call expensive bottle of wine obviously, but I was so. I, you know, back then I used to be so frugal because I was like, my whole thing was and my business partner was not like, not that he was bad with money or anything, but he's definitely like, Hey, let's buy the nice bottle.

It just took me, I had to sit there and look at it for a really long time, and looking back, I feel kind of dumb that I took that long, but it was just, you know, it was like this mindset shift of. I went from a scarcity mindset to an abundance mindset in my business with like overnight, because I realized like there's all this money out there. I just have to figure out how to go get it. You know? And I, and I hadn't thought of it that way before.

Jacques Hopkins: Well, I mean, you said that the bottle is sitting on your desk. Please tell me that's not like the same unopened bottle. Like hopefully you actually drink the wine.

Bobby Hoyt: Yeah, no, so it's, it's this one right here. We, we, my business partner and I, we, every time we've had a really great launch, well, not every time actually, but when we have really significant business milestones, we'll both buy the same bottle. He lives in Dallas. I live in Houston, and we'll jump on the computer and we'll kind of like, you know, drink it together or whatever, and then we keep them as trophy bottles.

So I've got one for the first launch. We did the second launch. We did like the relaunch. I've got one for. The day that my w I told my wife she could quit her job. And then I've got one for when she started her YouTube channel. And I think I've got one for when we passed half a million dollars in sales.

So there's like, we have all these like, you know, kind of trophy things and they're cool to look at cause it kind of just, when I look at that bottle or I kind of remember that feeling of what that launch felt like and like how life changing it was. So. Yeah.

Jacques Hopkins: That's pretty cool. Yeah, that's amazing. I love that. Now, I think, you know, people listening to this, you can't just expect a $100,000 launch, you know, every weekend or anything like that. You obviously, you know, we talked about this already, but you obviously had built a significant audience up to that point. So you mentioned 900 people were on the wait list, which is amazing. Like how big was your whole list at this point?

Bobby Hoyt: I had 13,000 people on the list.

Jacques Hopkins: That's, that's not many.

Bobby Hoyt: It wasn't many. No, but I, I had a really. I had a really strong bond with my audience, and I think that it just was kind of like the right. It was the right product for the right audience at the right time. And so I think that that's, that's a big part of it. Now, this course has still been like very, very successful three years later. So it's not like it was just a flash in the pan thing, but I think we were fortunate. We brought in a really good copywriter. Chris was a Koski and he runs a site called the email copywriter.com and he was a friend of Mike's and he really helped us put together our sales page and the emails.

And the launch strategy and his whole thing is he does, he used to do, I don't think he does this anymore cause he doesn't have time, but he used to do like e-comm launches and things like he was doing like eight figure launches and you know, these massive, massive launches for companies. And so, you know, ours was like the smallest one I think he had ever, you know, he had ever done so. But he helped us put that stuff together. And so it was just like. We just had the right things in place, I think, for, for it to go well.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, and just to be clear, like 13,000 email list, I mean, it is big relatively speaking, but if you compare 13,000 email list to a hundred and something thousand dollar launch, that's amazing. That conversion rate is incredible. What was the price point of that product?

Bobby Hoyt: It was two 47 when we first launched it. Is that crazy? I'm just like, I'm just like blown away. This is crazy. Pretty Epic.

Jacques Hopkins: So 13,000 person email list converted to a 900 person wait list, a $247 product and you got a bottle of pals on sale. Yeah. Well I was going to say you got a bottle of Pappy on out of it, but yeah, 132,000 yeah. Amazing. All right, well let's go to the other side, right? I'm sure it always, it hasn't been just smooth sailing, whatever. Right. Tell us about a time when maybe you were struggling and weren't sure if things were going to going to work.

Bobby Hoyt: Yeah, so I think one of the, probably within that first year, that was when we really were like the most struggle. I think when the struggle was the highest because we were going from like, you know, like I said, a hundred something thousand dollars to like. $15,000 in revenue from the recurring revenue. So it was, it was just like we would have these massive spikes and then just the lowest of lows.

It felt like the lowest cause your, your perspective on this stuff totally changes once you hit it. And everybody that's in business knows, it's like the next level you get to, it always feels like you're failing if you don't get to that point again. And so we were just having these like massive highs and lows.

And then I remember for the Facebook ads, for bloggers course we launched that one. We were sure that thing was going to crush because it had, you know, the list weren't as big, I don't think in, but we had a lot of excitement around it. And I think we did. We did $17,000. In on that launch, and our expectation was that it was going to be a six figure launch.

And so we were, we were just like devastated, you know, which is stupid because it was still way more money than I'd ever made when I was a teacher in a weekend. But you know, when you start to have a business where you have more people that work for you and there's more infrastructure and more overhead and things like that, like you, when you don't have great launches, it really kind of.

It, it hurts a lot more. And what had happened was we just didn't nail the messaging. Like we didn't address all the pain points in the copy. We really just didn't have a very effective strategy. And I think we've got a little bit cocky because our first one went so well, and so when the second one didn't crush like we thought it would, we really had to go back and evaluate like, you know.

What we did, and we call them autopsies. We do autopsies on the launches, and we looked at it, we were like, we just, we just missed the Mark on this. We just totally missed it. So we've, we've done better with that one sense, and we kind of figured out some things like this one needs to be launched through an affiliate, like a bigger affiliate to really be more successful because that's, there's more hurdles for a blogger to start running.

Facebook ads for their business than there are for like person that wants to start a side hustle. So we had to figure that out and you know, more trust through an affiliate and change the copy and all that kind of stuff.

Jacques Hopkins: So you keep saying, we, we, we, we, right. Do you have any, have you done any launches? Do you have any online courses that are not with a business partner?

Bobby Hoyt: No, I actually don't. They're, they're all through laptop empires. I mean, I am going to launch my own products and courses through millennial money, man. But that's really more of an affiliate marketing business than it is. Anything else?

So that's, you know, I think, I'm trying to think if there's anything I know I've done that's like a totally solo thing. I don't think so. Yeah. I mean, it's mostly been, you know, the course thing. I think for me especially, I've got a team on both sides, so a millennial money, man, I've got a whole team of people that work for me.

Laptop empires. I do that with Mike. We've got a team over there too, but I don't think I would like. Doing a course online or an online course business as much by myself because it's stressful. Like people don't realize like there's a lot, you know, I don't know if you do everything on your own, but it's, I mean, you have super high highs and you have very low lows sometimes, or at least I was.

That's been my experience. So like sharing that kind of burden and. There's just a lot that goes into courses like the, the actual production of the courses and the copywriting and the launch planning and the, got it. I don't know everything else. Yeah. There's just so much that goes into it. I don't think I would want to do it on my own.

Jacques Hopkins: Well, I did it on my own for a while and I, I do have a team behind me now, which is, which is awesome, but a lot, you know, a lot of people. You know, bootstrap it and they do it on their own for, for, for, you know, I've even had people on this podcast who are wildly successful that are still doing it completely alone without a team, and they make it work.

Bobby Hoyt: Yeah. It's crazy. I couldn't do it, you know?

Jacques Hopkins: What do you think is most stressful to you about that? Because if I had to go back to myself, like I could get it done. I mean, certain parts would certainly be stressful. But for you, what's so stressful about trying to do an online course by yourself?

Bobby Hoyt: I think, you know, to be totally honest with you, I think the, the customer service part of it can be really rough because what I found out is like most people are really great people, but when somebody wants like a refund, for example, they will go to the craziest lengths and say the worst things to try and get a refund.

And so, you know, that was something we experienced kind of. You know, kind of early on where it was like, we had some people that were trying to Sue us. We had people tell us that they weren't, that our course didn't have like our, our customer base wasn't diverse enough, you know, like as if we were like targeting, you know, certain people and things like that.

I mean, like, we had all sorts of just crazy stuff go on. And so we brought on a customer service person, Aaron, who handles all that stuff for us. And that has been. The biggest stress relief probably out of everything cause she handles everything. Like when there, when we first launched the course, we couldn't even figure out how to log into the thing before we launched, like 10 minutes before we, the first email went out and Mike and I were sitting there like, crap, we don't know how to log into the course.

Like, I don't know how we had overlooked that, but we were trying to like get in there and change something we could. And so like we were just panicking. And so now we have somebody that like if a student, you know, they don't get their welcome email or whatever, if they, or if they put the. Typically what happens is they don't put their email address incorrectly on at checkout or whatever, right?

And then they freak out. They're like, Aw man, you know, you guys scan me, I can't get my course. And it's like, Oh, I'm sorry. You just, you put a tie. It was a typo in the email. Like those actually your fault. But that's our support person handles all that stuff now. So that's been like the biggest, I think, stress relief.

And then the other thing is with course launches specifically. We had this rule is like whatever can go wrong will go wrong. Like there's always some kind of stupid technology thing that happens, or like maybe a zap doesn't work from the cart to the the course actually getting to people. It just, something crazy always happens. But yeah, that's, that's pretty much it with the stressful stuff.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad you said that because I, you know, looking back, customer support is the first thing that I outsourced and I'm so glad I did and I, I'd never want to go back to that point. In fact, she'll, she'll send me funny things like that every now and then, like, look at this, you'll get a kick out of it.

And just like literally two days ago she sent me somebody send a message. You know, 30 minutes after buying the course, they send a message. It's like, I knew this was a scam. I don't know why I gave you my money. Like I can't get in like I'm about to, you know, about to report you to my bank and this and that. And it turns out, like you said, he just entered his email wrong at checkout, so it didn't match up, so he couldn't get his things.

Bobby Hoyt: Oh yeah. There's a, there's a lot, man. And it's been a really interesting experience kind of watching people, you know, how different people react to things like that. I think, you know. Most people are very, like I said, nice people, but there are just some people that will just go way out of their way to just be like horrible about things. So I don't even, to be totally honest with you, I won't even look at the support inbox or really just like our laptop empires inbox unless Aaron passes it along to us, because it's just.

I open it up and I get stressed out because there's people that just aren't pissed about something and it's like a small, small fraction of the people that actually buy your course, but that kind of stuff, if you read that a lot like that can, that can kind of ruin your day. So I don't even look at it anymore.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, it's better to look at the ones that are like, Oh my gosh, you changed my life. This is amazing. Yeah, totally. All right, so next question, you may have somewhat answered this already. You let me know, but like I, I usually like to ask like, what is, what is something really neat that you've been able to experience. Because of having a successful online course business. It's a cool purchase, a cool experience in doing, but to do so. Was it that amazing bottle of wine or is there something else you can tell us about?

Bobby Hoyt: I think honestly it was, it was having enough money coming in to where my wife could quit her job and stay at home. She was a teacher, so we were about teachers. We were going to, we were planning on her leaving before I actually launched the Facebook side also, of course, but it was going to be a little bit tighter. And I was like, I was just a little bit more worried about it, you know? But then we launched that course and she actually quit her job like six months later.

And I think that has been the best thing so far because. Like my wife. I'm very fortunately get along very well. So we were really like it was, it was been, it's been cool to have her be here and she started her own YouTube channel now. Like she started her own business, but just being able to like both be home and do, have the freedom to guess, go do the things we want. Like that's probably the most special experience. I think that the info-product thing is, has done for me so far.

Jacques Hopkins: Really cool. We did things kind of the other way. My wife had quit. Her job when we had our first kid. And that was, that was an added pressure and an added thing to think about when I was considering quitting my job is because my wife had already quit and me having a good salary and a good job was what allowed her to quit.

So it was like more pressure on me, but fortunately things all worked out. Cool. All right, well just a couple more questions for you here, man. So let's talk about tools next. You mentioned a couple of tools. You mentioned click funnels and thrive. What are some of the other tools that you're using that, that really make your, your online course business and, and I guess your business overall work.

Bobby Hoyt: Yeah. So yeah, we use Thrivecart for the cart, and then right now we actually. Well, we use teachable to how's the course, but we're moving to a custom platform on our actual website soon. You teachable, teachable has been great. You know, I don't want to say anything bad about it, but it's just been a little bit limited for what we need for the course.

So we'll have a custom version of that. And then I think we use active campaign for our, all of our emails, which, you know, the funnel building and all that stuff. Yeah. I mean, I use convert kit for millennial money, man. It's been fine, like ConvertKit's a good tool from bloggers, but I think if you are doing more like hardcore sales funnels and things like that, I think active campaign is the premier way to go, at least from everything I've tried, because the, the, the capabilities that you have to actually build out a funnel that.

It has a lot of different triggers and things happening in it. Like I think that that's, it's been huge for our business and most of our revenue comes from event email. So there's been that, you know, deadline funnel is obviously, you talked about that one. Deadline funnel is a big one. You know, we actually, we actually use a tracking suite and called Woopra.

I dunno, this is kind of maybe a little bit more of an obscure one, but it's kind of like a very high powered tracking system. So we can fire all these different triggers and coupon popups and all this different stuff based on like if somebody has looked at 20 pieces of content on the site, we can hit them with a special offer pop up.

So we've gotten to some pretty advanced stuff like that this year. That's been really cool. And we've, and with that tracking software, like we're able to see like. You know which pieces of content we basically, we've been able to prove out attribution, which is like the hardest thing to do with, I think online sales.

We've been able to figure out like these people are looking at this piece of content, this piece of content, this piece of content before they buy, which is. Kind of incredible, you know? But it allows you to put more resources into building out that content, making sure that you can see the whole customer journey. So that's been really cool. And that's really it for like the big ones, I think.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, we were totally on the same page. I mean, click funnels, deadline funnel, active campaign, huge fan of active campaign. But that whoop, whoop, whoop, bruh. Whoo FRA. Totally lost me there. I'd never heard of that one.

Bobby Hoyt: Yeah, it's pretty intense.

Jacques Hopkins: I'm going to look into it. All right, so for listeners of this podcast, whether somebody has a big audience out there pre pre launching a course like you did or maybe doesn't have an audience at all, if somebody is at the beginner stages of the course creation process, what advice do you have for those people.

Bobby Hoyt: Yeah. So what I would say is, is do more of a model where you build the courses you go. So this is something we tell people that don't maybe have like a big audience yet. Like you pre-sell it when you pre-sell the course, and then you build it along with people live and then you can package it later and resell it.

And so that's something that we've, we've experimented with, but we've just seen the most success with people that have maybe smaller lists or don't have an audience yet. I, I think that content creation is a really big part of core sales because it is it you have to bring people in. But I do think if you're going to like launch something and you don't have a big wait list, you know, just pre-sell it to people to prove out the idea, build it alongside of your first round of students, and then you can package that later and then start trying to figure out all the cool launch stuff and all of that later.

Jacques Hopkins: Well, Bobby, it's been a absolute pleasure to talk with you about that, this and hear some of your stories related to your online business and specifically the online courses. So before we get outta here, let everybody know specifically where they can go to to learn more about you and, and look into more of your products. And while we're at it, you know, pitcher wife stuff too. You said she's got a new YouTube channel and all that. Let's, let's hear about it. The wife's business too.

Bobby Hoyt: Yeah. So I'll start with her cause I feel like I get in trouble if I didn't. So you can follow her. She does home decor. She's got a home decor YouTube channel. She does product reviews and things like that. Just crushes with product reviews. She's coral Hoyt cor. A. L. H. O. Y. T. that's her YouTube channel. You can follow her social media or. That's, I think that's her handle on everything, but if you're, if you're into that kind of stuff, she's definitely, definitely good at that.

And then for me, laptop empires is the infoproduct business. You can find [email protected] I find us on laptop empires underscore on Instagram is probably where we're more active. But most of the stuff that we do is on our email list. To jump on our email list. We do a lot of newsletter blasts, we have podcasts, we try to provide a lot of value, and we talk a lot about a lot of the same things here.

Email marketing, and. SEO and basically everything else, and then you can also follow me at millennial money, man.com and a gen Y money man, G E N Y. Money man on all my social media handles.

Jacques Hopkins: Bobby Hoyts, millennial money, man, laptop empires. Thank you so much for your time today.

All right. That's going to do it for the conversation with Bobby. David, welcome back.

David Krohse: Thank you. All right. So awesome. That was cool, right?

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. I really, really enjoy that conversation. It just, it just worked. Like it just was a good conversation. I felt like I always just had the, the, the right next question for him and that, that goes, you know, all the credit goes to him.

I'm sure he's been on just tons of, of interviews, so he was a great interview. He as well. So a lot I want to dive into here too, but I mean, I've gotta start with the wine story, man. That was my favorite. Part of the whole thing was how he was sitting there in the supermarket at the grocery store looking at this bottle of wine for five minutes.

I, I've told so many of my friends that aren't in the online core space, this story about how he's looking at it, deciding if he should buy it for or not. Look at his phone since he's walked in the grocery store, he's made like $5,000 he buys the bottle of wine. Absolutely love it.

David Krohse: Yeah, dude, I was, so, I was listening to this. I was out for a walk with my dog, and during that whole part, I mean, when he was talking about making $80,000 in two hours, like I just had this like ear to ear grin. I walked by this dude. I'm thinking, this guy probably thinks I'm on drugs or something. And then, yeah, when you asked him like, so what was the value of that bottle of wine?

I was totally prepared for him to say like, I didn't know (200) 500-1000 dollars. And he said, 55 bucks. I was just, I, I, I came pretty close to snorting if I didn't, but. Yeah, that was hilarious and just so cool. Just amazing.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, I was ready for it to be like multiple thousands of dollars as well. You just don't know. You don't know the perspective. The most expensive bottle of wine I've, I've ever had probably be Caymus, which is like a, in the store, it's like a 80 or $90 bottle, you know, a little over a hundred in a restaurant type of a thing, and it's, Oh man, it's amazing. I've never had Pappy on, but I, so I didn't know what price point we were talking about, so it was just really cool to get into.

You know, get into his space at the time and hear that complete paradigm shift you just all a one time and the, you know, the other thing about that, you 80,000 in a couple of hours, $132,000 in that launch, all of his launches haven't gone like that. Like that. Like I don't, I don't like just sharing the crazy success stories on this show because my story was not like that.

I'd like to think that I'm pretty successful today, but my first launch was, was crickets. And it took a long time for me to, to find success. And he even mentioned like, I think he just kind of briefly glossed over it, but that actually wasn't his very first launch. He said his very first launch, what was not very successful, but he learned some things from it.

And then, and then he did $132,000 launch. And I, I struggled for a long time because I would only listen to these crazy success stories, but I want to put that disclaimer out there that that's not going to be the case for everybody. Just because you build something doesn't mean they will come.

David Krohse: Exactly. And I mean also he shared, you know, it was like they had added staff, added more overhead, and then they tried to launch that. Facebook ads for bloggers and $15,000 which as I listened, I'm like $15,000 still sounds really good. But again, if you add overhead, I mean like, you know, for anybody that's had a business a little while, you know that the top line and the bottom line can be tell a different story than just the amount of money you bring in. So yeah, it was good to hear that. Good to hear that perspective and the roller coaster.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. I mean, if I, if I told you, if I just tell some random guy in the street, Hey, you know, last month, and this is, this is not true, but what if I said, last month I brought in $15,000 from selling an online piano course and to random Joe on the street.

That would sound amazing. Right? But I'm this, this number is true. I spent $20,000 in my business. On, you know, contractors and ads and software and all the thing, all the expenses I have. So if I actually would have brought in $15,000 that's pretty unimpressive considering I spent 20 so it's, you got to know the whole picture as well.

David Krohse: I love how, I mean, on that roller coaster ride, they talk, he talked about how they both celebrate the successes, but then like learn from the failures. So I mean, the idea of the trophy bottles and he still has those that represent the high points of his career. But then he said, anytime they do a failed launch, you know, they do this deep dive autopsy and try to figure out, you know, what could be improved.

Jacques Hopkins: That's good. I do that on, on probably not as deep a dive as I should. I, I, I'll look at it and be like, okay, what can be improved? But I don't, I don't do a deep dive. It's seems like a daunting task, but it sounds like they do a really good job with that. With the, with the, we're talking about right now with the launches and specifically that big launch.

Here's a quote that I absolutely love that that I, that I wrote down, he said it was the right product for the right audience at the right time. So it sounds like there was, there was a bit of luck there, just, it just, everything came into place for that one big, $132,000 launch. So while a $15,000 launch for a lot of people, and even for him was, was nice.

You know, we're talking 10 X dad here and, and I think. For just these mega incredible, amazing launches. It does take the right product at the right time for the right audience. And that that quote specifically came up when we're talking about what percent of his email list purchase, cause that was what was most impressive to me was how small his email list was in relation to how many sales he actually made.

David Krohse: Now, as I listened to that discussion to that first launch, the thing that jumped out at me was just the fact that they invested in professional copywriting. And I was just curious with your copywriting, like have you hired a professional copywriter at all? Have you, has it been more funnel hacking? Did when he said that was there, I mean, I, I get, I get a feeling I have some idea of how you think, but was there a part of you that was like, maybe I should reach out to that guy. How, how have you done all your copy to this point?

Jacques Hopkins: Definitely copy copywriting is one of the things that I, I'll probably outsource to some degree in the next year or so. Haven't paid for any copywriting up until this point. Now I will get. You know, my assistant, Emily will, she'll help me write certain blog posts and things.

But in terms of like sales copy and headlines and all that, I've always done it myself. The biggest influence on me to this point would be StoryBrand by Donald Miller. And so one line that I like to use in a lot of places, it's at the bottom of every page of my website, and it's throughout my evergreen webinar is this, it's, you have the ability.

To learn piano inside of you. I'm just, I'm just the guy that's going to help you reach down and unlock it. Right? And so the, the key behind StoryBrand is that you are not the hero in the story. Your customer is the hero. You're just the guide. And so I really want to try to empower other people that they have the ability, like they're the hero.

And without that book, I wouldn't have been able to, to, you know, come up with that line, create that line. I think it's pretty effective. Sure. So no, no copywriter at the moment, but I'm probably going to be outside. And to your point, you know Bobby's story is his motivation to outsource some copywriting.

David Krohse: The discussion of when to quit your job. I enjoyed that. I. I actually wrote down the quote that he said, he said, when you're scared, when your back's against the wall, that's when you really start trying to figure it out, how to make things work. Just that discussion of when to quit. I was thinking, you know, there's a story of a Cortez that when they arrived on the shores of Mexico, he burned the ships and it was like, you guys have no choice but to go and succeed and conquer Mexico.

Then the other analogy about when to quit, if you have a side hustle and you're trying to make it your full time job. Dave Ramsey, who I've mentioned before, is a big inspiration. He says, you know, get your side hustle going, but he said, move the boat closer to the dock before you jump. He's like, get it. Go and get it going.

Where it's like he'd probably say 60 or 80% of your income before you quit your full time job. But that was a fun discussion. And as I was thinking, I was like, yeah, those are. Those are two good boat analogies about when, when you get to quit.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. And everybody's risk tolerance is, is different as well. So, but those are very good analogies. And I, I enjoyed particularly the conversations he had with his wife and also when she decided to quit her job too. So he was saying that. He went to his wife, or maybe she was his fiance at the time, that he wanted to go ahead and quit even though he hadn't really made it by any stretch of the imagination.

But she was totally cool with it. And that's not how the conversations went with my wife, cause she's, you know, there's a lot of freaking out because there's a, there's a lot of. There's a lot of added stress when you don't have certain benefits and certain paychecks and so on, but for, but the difference is that his fiance was still had a job at the time, whereas my wife had already quit her job to stay at home with our new baby, and if I quit our job, that meant all those, all the benefits and the security was going completely away.

Right. So that made it a little easier probably for his fiance to say, to go for it. But. It was cool that hearing how important to Bobby it was when the day that his wife got to then quit her job eventually.

David Krohse: No, that was awesome. And I looked up her YouTube channel as well. It's super cool just to see how she's, she's making it work for her to be in being a solo preneur now what about the Wolf WRA? Did you actually look that up? It's been a few weeks since you recorded this. Have you looked into that deep dive analytics on the customer journey through your. Your systems.

Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, Dave, I think it was, I think it was Woopra or something like that. I've just briefly looked into it. It's, they have like a free plan and then a really expensive plan. And it was, it was good to hear Bobby talk about it and I'm going to look into it a little bit more. But at the same time, you know, you gotta, you gotta draw the line somewhere with how many, you know, different software packages and tools you use. And many people know that I'm already using a lot of them.

And I also feel like I've got things pretty dialed in at the moment, and I do keep things. You know, relatively simple. It's all relative, but for the most part, I keep it pretty simple, but it is something that I've noted down to look into in the future. And Hey, if Bobby's using it, then, then let's look into it. You know?

David Krohse: Sounds good.

Jacques Hopkins: Cool. Well, I think that's that. Those are my big takeaways. I don't really have any other notes from this conversation, but like I said, it was super enjoyable on my side. Any, any other, anything else worth mentioning from you?

David Krohse: No, that's it. Love this episode.

Jacques Hopkins: Cool. Well, thank you, David, for joining me for another episode of the online course show and thank you everyone out there for listening to another episode of the online course show, and thanks again to Bobby for joining me here.

For all the notes and links from today's episode, you can find those show notes by going to the online course. guy.com/one 28. And for plenty more resources on helping you on your online course journey. Head to the online course guy.com.

Thanks again. We'll talk next week.