Welcome to the very first episode of the year! Here’s to hoping that 2021 is one where the days are a bit brighter. And I’m feeling great about starting off the year with today’s interview: Mike Greenfield and I had a great conversation about how he’s helping home cooks up their game at a time when more people than ever are making their meals at home.

“Don’t listen to anyone who says there is one perfect way… Trust yourself. Do it.”

– Mike Greenfield

In This Episode, We Talked About:

    • (0:39) Gearing up for the new year with a book recommendation I’m very excited about
    • (9:05) Our take on New Year resolutions
    • (10:26) Reading goals
    • (12:16) David’s first virtual lunch-and-learn and the importance of live feedback
    • (15:50) Setting the stage for today’s interview
    • (17:21) Introducing Mike Greenfield and thinking about modern “celebrity”
    • (21:22) When courses came into the picture for Mike
    • (24:55) His business structure and timeline
    • (27:45) Talking sponsorships
    • (30:10) How Mike created his first course
    • (33:09) Mindset and why his approach resonates with me
    • (37:55) Cook vs. chef
    • (38:59) Launching and learning lessons along the way
    • (45:22) Where he crossed paths with people who could help
    • (47:07) Pricing and revenue decisions
    • (50:49) Thoughts on social media
    • (51:55) Mike’s upcoming launch
    • (54:14) Why I’m interested in his course offerings
    • (57:12) What he’s doing differently this time
    • (59:37) Funnels and email lists
    • (1:02:46) Talking Active Campaign
    • (1:03:53) Teams and evolving work responsibilities
    • (1:08:43) Our roles as course creators
    • (1:13:04) Risk and entrepreneurship
    • (1:16:12) The one thing that made the biggest difference for my business
    • (1:18:24) Talking parenting, balance, and creating space for breaks
    • (1:21:47) Being in the right place at the right time
    • (1:24:40) Mike’s advice for new and aspiring course creators
    • (1:26:46) License to do things
    • (1:28:11) Where to find Mike outside of YouTube
    • (1:28:43) Why I appreciate hearing David’s perspective on interviews
    • (1:29:22) Who gets a pass on marketing?
    • (1:30:36) Building assets
    • (1:32:26) Am I still doing personalized coaching?
    • (1:34:14) YouTube revenue
    • (1:35:51) The best way to contact celebrities
    • (1:37:35) Takeaways from Social Dilemma
    • (1:39:43) Transitioning a community from one platform to another
    • (1:43:24) A rabbit hole that led David to my long-defunct music podcast
    • (1:48:48) Our potluck dishes of choice
    • (1:50:02) Why I now have a full-time transcriptionist
    • (1:52:54) Email lists, funnels, and design inspiration
    • (1:56:02) Enjoying different stages of life and business + teasing for an upcoming episode
    • (1:58:57) Wrapping up with how you can help the podcast

That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.


Offers and Tools:
Guest Links:
Resources and Recommendations:
Jacques’ Courses:
David’s Courses:

Jacques Hopkins  00:02

Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course, and they're making a living doing it.


Jacques Hopkins  00:12

But not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way. And I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses. Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins, and this is The Online Course Show.


Jacques Hopkins  00:33

And off we go, welcome aboard!. Glad you're with us. I'm your host, Jacques Hopkins. And right over there is our co-host. What is going on Dr.K.?


David Krohse  00:41

Oh, I'm better than I deserve. How are you doing?


Jacques Hopkins  00:43

2021, man. We made it out of the craziness of 2020. Well, not that there's not still craziness going on but here we go, first episode of hopefully 52 in 2021. Welcome to the new year, sir!


David Krohse  00:58

Thank you. Yeah, I'm excited. I feel totally confident that everything is going to be perfect in 2021. So, glad we made it through 2020.


Jacques Hopkins  01:07

I sense a little bit of sarcasm.


David Krohse  01:10



Jacques Hopkins  01:10

So, I read a good book recently. I want to tell you about it, and I actually made a couple posts in The Online Course Community, our Facebook group, which is right at about a thousand people now. So, if you haven't checked that out, if you're listening to this, a lot of podcast listeners are there, search up The Online Course Community on Facebook, go to TheOnlineCourseGuy.com and click on Community at the top and you can join the conversation there. But... I read an awesome, awesome book. From 6 To 7 Figures: that's the name of it. And I've made a couple posts, you've seen me talk about it. Man, did you pick up a copy yet? Have you dived in?


David Krohse  01:50

Yeah, I did dive in. Let's see here. I... Well, I got a Kindle copy. And then, within five days, you put out and you said, "Hey, it's available on audiobook now." So, I returned the Kindle copy, and I'll get the audio book within the next few days.


Jacques Hopkins  02:03

Nice. Man, I love audiobooks. That's my primary way of consuming a book content. I do appreciate Kindle versions, as well. I've got one of those really nice Kindle Oasises. Man, I'm struggling with, like, plurality today. Maybe it's an Oasii. But it's a really nice one, and so I read this book on my Kindle Oasis. It was really nice, very quick read, pretty short, very succinct sections. The subtitle is "Simplify Your Business, Gain Your Time Back, Scale Faster Than Ever.” So, you haven't read it yet. This isn't like a fiction book where I could be possibly spoiling something. Let me just give you my synopsis and why I enjoyed it so much. The core concept is that the things that you do in your business... and look, we probably have a lot of six-figure course creators that listen to this podcast, very few seven-figure course creators, if I had to guess. So, the point of the book, the overarching point is - the things that you did to take you to build a six-figure business, are not the same things that you need to do to go from six-figures to seven-figures.


Jacques Hopkins  03:17

To get to six figures: there's a lot of grit, there's a lot of working long hours, just brute force. And the things that the author, Austin, has found that work best to go to seven figures are systems. Like, that's the big thing: systems and then also team. And in the book, he actually walks you through very specific systems that they recommend, why systems are so great, like they systematize as much as possible. And then they also talk about how important a really, really great team is. And they even go so far as to walk you through their exact hiring process. And just to give you an example of that, which they do differently is when they go to hire somebody, they don't just post your standard stuff on a ZipRecruiter or whatever they go about hiring much like we as course creators think about going about like, selling a course. They'll make a landing page, they'll put a sales video why somebody would want to come work for them, they'll have a one call to action button to apply, and then that whole process is very automated in terms of getting applicants' responses, like onto a spreadsheet to make it so you can easily review. They'll even run ads! They'll pay for ads, to run ads to that landing page where they're advertising the job. That's how much importance they place on actually hiring and finding the right people for them. What do you think about all that?


David Krohse  04:48

Well, I mean, it sounds great. Obviously, I read books like The E-Myth Revisited. And some other ones that kind of highlight these same things, but yet, I respect your opinion enough to say like, "Okay, this must frame it in a different way or have specific steps,” that I'm like, "Okay, I'm intrigued."


Jacques Hopkins  05:07

I love short and simple, like, straight to the point, right? And that's what this book is. It's not a long book, it's to the point, and it's not that any one thing is like crazy revolutionary, but when you put it all together, to me, it just makes sense. It's like, okay, I've got this high six-figure, on the edge of seven-figure, online course business, and I totally resonate with what they're saying, and going into 2021 I really want to do a better job of the systems, for sure. We're pretty good at it. We're getting better every day and reading this triggered some new ideas there. And then the team as well. And I want to go through this hiring process and see how it works. You know, I haven't mentioned yet, but the reason I read this book is because of, I think it was Episode 160 - Abbey Ashley, right? - pretty recent episode, this company, 2X, is who Abbey's uses for her coaching.  Like, who she's using to help scale her business, and she's already $2 million per year. So, they have a coaching program that Abbey mentioned, but they also have a $10 book, you could start there because not every - I think she said was like $3,000 a month, which for her, it's totally worth it - but not everybody can afford that for sure.


David Krohse  06:24



Jacques Hopkins  06:25

Man, I'm excited for you to get into because I think you could even apply this to your in-person chiropractic business.


David Krohse  06:31

Oh, for sure. Yeah, systems are huge, growing the team - it's everything.


Jacques Hopkins  06:35

There was also something in there called their 72 Hour Rule. That was really cool. So, I measure a lot of things. We talked about something called KPIs - Key Performance Indicators - that's important as a business owner to look at KPIs every now and then: course sales, for me, I look at podcast downloads, I look at, you know, how much of my traffic comes from SEO. There's like 15 different KPIs I look at and one thing in the book was they actually look at reactivity as a KPI metric, meaning that their team should be working very proactively and not reactively. And so, what this 72 Hour Rule is, is that as a team, like, you should never request something for somebody else, and need it back within 72 hours. Right? You got to plan better than that. I thought that's really cool. And they measure that. If somebody needs something within 72 hours, that's something they measure as the reactivity within the business.


David Krohse  07:37

Wow. How do they measure that?


Jacques Hopkins  07:38

It's powerful. Well, I think if they just... I don't know specifically, but in my head, I'm thinking, "Okay, if somebody does need something within 72 hours, then they'll do it, but then that's a demerit or whatever you want to call it, and it's like how many times did we break the 72 Hour Rule this week, this month, this year, and so on? That's my understanding.


David Krohse  08:00

Yeah, and just getting everybody on the team to constantly be thinking like, "Okay, we had this thing [that] didn't go quite right. How can we develop a system where it doesn't happen again? And that's constantly something I talk about with my in-person team is like, "Here's the thing that went wrong. I'm not like, not blaming you on any level for what went wrong in the past. I just want us to get into collaborative mode to figure out the system where we get it right in the future."


Jacques Hopkins  08:23

Yeah, exactly. And so, if somebody is constantly coming to you needing things last minute, and you can be like, "Look, I need you to stop asking for things so last minute." That's a very vague request. But they have a system in place where it's like, "Look, if instead, you could be like, we have this 72-hour rule. And as a part of the team, I need you to abide by this rule." And it's not a vague request. It's like, literally to the hour, don't request things within this. And I think that's just one example of the system and the team working together. I haven't really implemented much from this book yet, but as we go into the new year, I feel like it was just the right message at just the right time for me and my business.


David Krohse  09:06

Very nice.


Jacques Hopkins  09:06

So, speaking of the new year, and whatnot, did you make any resolutions?


David Krohse  09:10



Jacques Hopkins  09:11

Or the better question: How do you feel about resolutions? Is that something you're for?


David Krohse  09:16

Oh yeah, I'm for it in the sense of, yeah, just anytime that you get a chance to really be in the mindset that you're going to improve your life, you should. But no, I haven't chosen any specific ones just yet.


Jacques Hopkins  09:27

Learn piano?


David Krohse  09:28



Jacques Hopkins  09:31

And January is usually...


David Krohse  09:31

I've been playing guitar. So...


Jacques Hopkins  09:33

Oh, good. January is usually the best month for my online piano course business I would assume because of New Year's resolutions, but I'm not a huge fan, in general. I don't think we need to wait until a new year to try to make better habits for ourselves. I usually try to set yearly goals, but I haven't actually read this book yet, but have you heard of The 12 Week Year by Brian Moran?


David Krohse  09:56

No, I haven't heard of that specific book. I have heard of the Ninety Day, kind of, Goals.


Jacques Hopkins  10:01

Yeah, yeah, same concept. The point of that is simply that a lot of times it's more effective to break things down into quarters instead of years. I think we've talked about that on the podcast even. And I want to be doing more and more of that, thinking in terms of what are we going to accomplish this quarter versus this whole year? And so, that's going to be one of my focuses, but overall, I mean, one of my things is, I would like to read more books. I think there are just so many people out there that are so much smarter than me, that I can learn from, and I haven't been reading a ton, but reading this book was awesome. I'm reading more, as well. So, other than that, just keep chugging along into 2021.


David Krohse  10:47

Nice. Yeah, you sent me a message yesterday that you said that you were going to have a goal of reading 52 books. You're considering setting that goal and then talking about one each week. And I was a little pessimistic over here, I was like, I want to set a goal for 12 to actually talk about on the podcast, but maybe land somewhere in between.


Jacques Hopkins  11:07

There's a fine line between pessimistic and realistic. And that's why I came to you and I was like, I was proposing, and I wasn't saying here, David, this is exactly what we're doing. Because I would love, I love the idea of reading 52 nonfiction books in 2021, but can I do that with all the other stuff I have going on? It's very hard to commit to right now. I've read basically one, we've talked about it. Let's find out next week, if I've read another, if not, maybe it'll be an every few weeks type of a segment where I just get my little book review.


David Krohse  11:37

Sure. And one of my concerns is finding 52 great books. So, you might end up with doing a disservice to the great books because you're spending time trying to make it through some mediocre ones.


Jacques Hopkins  11:49

I just do not think that would be the problem. There's just so many books out there that I want to read or even reread. Like if I go through 52 books this year, I promise you one of them will be Expert Secrets, one of them will be Story Brand, just like the ones that I want to keep reminding myself of the great principles in certain books. So, that's not my concern. My concern is just making sure I have 5 to 10 hours a week to dedicate it to reading a new book.


David Krohse  12:16

Right. Well, so last week, I got to do my first Virtual Lunch and Learn, is my little update. So again, my course is How to Do Lunch and Learns and Health Fairs for In-Person Businesses, and that kind of got shut down with the pandemic. Now the ironic thing, I'm super comfortable going and speaking in-person, and I know that a lot of people in this podcast audience are comfortable going live, putting their content out there, but the thought of going and speaking in-person would probably still make their blood pressure and heart rate spike huge. For me, like it's just so nice when you're in-person. You can see how people are reacting, you can see when their eyes kind of glaze over and know that you need to add something in there - some comedic element - or in-person, I mean, at a certain point, if somebody's starting to fall asleep, I can go and like stand right next to them, like a foot away from them, and like instantly, that person is perked up, they're back awake. Or, I can demonstrate somebody on the manager that's sitting in the third row, I can be like, hey, stand up and let's demonstrate this on you, and everybody starts to pay attention.


David Krohse  13:20

Doing it virtual, I wasn't able to see my audience at all, and that threw me for a loop. It was like, "Oh, man, I hope my jokes are making people laugh." The thing that I would say for the listeners is if you're trying to develop a course maybe you've got Version 1 out, but you want to make Version 2 better, somehow being able to see how your content goes on a live audience is a huge help. That could be asking your family like, "Hey, can I do this webinar for you live?" And you're going to see where their eyes glaze over. I mean, you're going to see, okay, I went one minute too long on that point. And you'll see their eyes glaze over. You make a note of that, and you make it better. And if you ask your family like, "Hey, would you sit through this 45 Minute Webinar?" And they all are like, "Oh, my God, no." Like, clearly you have your work cut out for you.


David Krohse  14:07

But Jacques, you've done that you actually taught a group not live in-person, but through Zoom. And yeah, that gave you feedback about where you were going too long, correct?


Jacques Hopkins  14:16

Yeah, it was invaluable, and to your point, like, what I did was a Zoom with eight other people, and it was a nice nine-person grid, and it was like we were all just hanging out. And as soon as I said something, or did something, somebody could immediately stop me and be like, "Hey, wait, show me that again." Whereas, you know, you compare that to like my weekly live streams that I do for my piano students, they're just chiming in via the chat, right? They're not actually on camera. I can't hear them or see them. And that's a totally, totally different vibe, and you're not getting that direct feedback. You're not getting the tone when people say things. And it sounds like maybe that's more of the format you did for this live presentation here recently?


David Krohse  14:57

Yes, I couldn't see a single person's face or reactions. I was just talking to the webcam.


Jacques Hopkins  15:02

But were they chatting at least?


David Krohse  15:04

No, because... no, I mean, there were time constraints. And so, basically it was largely a presentation, so, I just had to imagine that my jokes were landing, and I didn't have multiple patients come in. And so, they were like, "Yeah, it was one of the best presentations." But, I heard about that three days after it happened.


Jacques Hopkins  15:22

But see, if you're going to do it that way, you might as well just have a prerecorded video that you're airing for them. I mean, if there's going to be no interaction, then what's the point of even presenting it live?


David Krohse  15:32

Right? Well, I mean, the company invited me to come and talk to their team and their team loved it. But, yeah.


Jacques Hopkins  15:39

Just playing devil's advocate there a little bit, but it sounds like it went well overall. I know you were a little nervous going into it just because it's different than you normally do. But, it sounds like it went well.


David Krohse  15:49

Yes, it was a success.


Jacques Hopkins  15:50

All right, let's, uh, shall we talk about Mike Greenfield?


David Krohse  15:54



Jacques Hopkins  15:55

The conversation of the day, Mike Greenfield. Were you familiar with him before this conversation?


David Krohse  16:01

Had no clue.


Jacques Hopkins  16:02

Well, a lot of people are, right? He's got 2.2 million subscribers on YouTube. I wasn't either. You know, my assistant does a lot of the finding of guests. Not everybody. But you know, somebody like Mike Greenfield I wasn't familiar with. She found them. We made it happen. And so, just a couple minutes before we started recording the conversation that you're about to hear is when I met Mike Greenfield. And I was doing research before the conversation, and I was like, holy smokes, this guy has had an MTV show. This guy, he had a show on another network. Like he's been doing this for years and years and years. Huge following. Huge Instagram following, has the blue checkmark on Instagram. I was like, "This guy is big time. Amazing." Not that that's the requirement to come on this podcast, but I like to hear all the different perspectives. And we'll talk about some of the details here on the back end, but it was, you know, that's kind of what happened for me as I was leading into this conversation. And it didn't disappoint. Mike's a great guy. He's doing some cool things. He's got a little baby now, too. So, it was a lot of fun. You ready to hear it?


David Krohse  17:12

I'd love to hear it.


Jacques Hopkins  17:13

All right so, without further ado, here's the full conversation between myself and Mike Greenfield.


Jacques Hopkins  17:22

Mike Greenfield, welcome to The Online Course Show.


Mike Greenfield  17:25

Nice to be here. Thanks for having me.


Jacques Hopkins  17:27

It's a pleasure to meet you, get to talk to you. You got a lot of stuff going on. Some people might consider you a celebrity. I don't know how you feel about that word.


Mike Greenfield  17:37

Oh, boy.


Jacques Hopkins  17:37



Mike Greenfield  17:38

A YouTube celeb. I mean, my brother, like, I think one of the most genius things my brother ever said was that the world is getting to a point, or there will be a point where everyone has some type of celebrity status, because everyone who has social media, they have their own brand, or, you know, their own followers, to the point where, and you can see this happening now I think he called it like years ago, where being a celebrity just, the value is kind of gone. And it's starting to happen now where it's like, everyone, you know, you have an account with 1000 followers, like your celebrity in like, your own way to those people following you. And I think it's the world changing, and the idea of celebrity is changing. Yeah.


Jacques Hopkins  18:24

What if we just define it as verified on Instagram? Can we define it as that?


Mike Greenfield  18:29

That could be it for sure. Yeah, so I'm verified. I'm celeb status on Instagram.


Jacques Hopkins  18:34

Do you get like recognized in person very often?


Mike Greenfield  18:36

You know, it's funny, because post-COVID, that has not happened since COVID. When I was living in New York, it happened pretty often. It also, depending on like, where I was, like, I started realizing, you know, if I was in a farmer's market, or like a Whole Foods, you know, my potential for being spotted went up like 1,000%. So, like, depending on the demographic, if I'm by food, you know, markets or something, but COVID, it's like everyone's wearing a mask. No one's interacting. Also, I'm living out now in Long Island, so I don't really, yeah, I'm just like, in my neighborhood.


Jacques Hopkins  19:15

Has it gotten like, pre-COVID, does it start to get old? Like, I can tell you I've been recognized, like in the wild twice. And in both times, like my head got so big. Like, this is like I've made it like, people have recognized me. Once was about a year and a half ago, and then once was more recently, when I've been in other cities. Yeah, but I'm sure you've been recognized far more than two times, like, has it gotten old at all?


Mike Greenfield  19:37

I don't think it gets old unless you're like, Johnny Depp, you know.


Jacques Hopkins  19:42

Yeah. And, The Rock.


Mike Greenfield  19:42

Then you're like, yeah, like, you can't do anything and then, it's a nuisance. But for me, the biggest thing is, you know, also what you do for people because for me, I'm educating people on how to cook, so ultimately, if someone recognizes me, and they say something, I'm like, "Oh, this is cool, because I probably inspired them in some way on how to cook." So, like, it's not this, like, oh, you're an actor and like I know you from the movie screen, but that's not actually your real role and you're this big, like celebrity. Social media is a little different. It's more intimate. So, I've never had an experience that I didn't enjoy, that I wasn't happy about getting spotted, and it definitely didn't happen enough where I'm like, "Ugh!" Like, and it definitely got to my head probably a little bit every time for like, a few hours. And, yeah.


Jacques Hopkins  20:34

Yeah,  that makes sense. It's different than when we think of like, just your A-list celebrities, maybe it's hard to just be in public at all, because you're just constantly getting recognized. I know, the two times that I'm talking about, both times it was like paying students - people that had signed up for my program.


Mike Greenfield  20:49



Jacques Hopkins  20:50

So, they had seen hours of content of me, actually teaching them piano. So, they felt like they knew me really well, even though I didn't really know who that person was.


Mike Greenfield  20:59

Yeah, so I'm sure those experiences were all great. And you know, and felt somewhat personal, like you had a real, like, somewhat of a real connection, not just like, again, you're some actor and like, you know, you're in this big movie, or yeah, so I always enjoy those. But again, it's been a while. I'm alright, with not getting spotted anymore. It's, it's fine.


Jacques Hopkins  21:21

So, this is called The Online Course Show. So obviously, we talk about online courses, but we don't have to just limit ourselves to that topic. Obviously, we've gotten off the rails a little bit already, the audience here, just for your benefit, it’s course creators and aspiring course creators. So, I'm a course creator, you're a course creator; you're more than a course creator. So, we'll talk about courses, but we'll talk about other things, as well. But, let's kind of start with courses and see where it goes with everything that you've done, when did courses come into the picture for you?


Mike Greenfield  21:54

So yeah, I was, you know, pretty much making a living on social media, and, you know, my brother and I, when we had a show together on TV. So, it was always that style of content, hosting cooking shows, you could say. Educating and entertaining people through cooking shows. And that's what I always aspired to create. And once I created that, especially on, you know, YouTube, such a unique platform, I start putting out content, and I think what I realized at some point, I started putting out fermentation content. And I was one of the first people on YouTube to really put some high-quality production and education into fermentation. Whereas before, it was, you know, the hippie in the basement making kombucha and like five parts on their iPhone, or whatever.


Mike Greenfield  22:45

So, I started getting into it, and I'm like, I'm very inspired by this. I love it. I didn't know that other people would enjoy it. I didn't go into it thinking that it would do well on YouTube, it was just... usually that's the stuff that does do well, when you're just inspired. And I started putting out content. And fermentation is, well, I guess specifically with sourdough, I put out a few videos on sourdough, and I kept getting the same questions over and over again. And you know, from being a sourdough baker and getting so into it, I realized, okay, YouTube isn't necessarily the best platform. It's a great starting point and I've, you know, I've got sourdough videos with millions and millions of people that have seen it and probably have gotten into breadmaking, but again, these same questions kept coming up, you know, or, you know, I watched your video a hundred times, like, I would get that. I've watched the sourdough video a hundred times trying to like, get it right, and I'm still struggling. So, that's when I think I started having this idea of, well, maybe I could create something bigger, where I could just focus more on the educational aspect and get out all of the information, because for something like sourdough, I would never, you know, do 40 videos on YouTube, or an entire video just covering the science of sourdough because YouTube has a specific marketing setup, and you need to stick to that if you're going to create a successful channel. You don't have to, but that's what I choose to do. You know, I've got to play the game of YouTube. And if I'm playing that game, I'll never be able to get out the proper information.


Mike Greenfield  24:28

So, that was the beginning of like, let me just go in and take some time off YouTube. And also, just do something different, that was fun and exciting after just being, you know, creating content for years and years. So, I made a course on sourdough. That was kind of... I knew nothing, you know, I didn't know how to make a course curriculum. I knew nothing about marketing at all. And I just kind of went in and took the risk and that was Phase 1.


Jacques Hopkins  24:56

YouTube channel started what year? The Sourdough University Course came out what year?


Mike Greenfield  25:00

So, YouTube, my brother and I started the channel Brothers Green probably 2013, and I think Sourdough probably came out 2017, I'm guessing. Yeah, because it was about three years ago.


Jacques Hopkins  25:14

And when you decided, "Okay, I'm going to make my first online course," at that point in your business you were making... it was a business like, where was the majority of your revenue coming from before the courses?


Mike Greenfield  25:26

So, we had an interesting run. Again, so just for people that don't know, which I'm sure a lot of people, my brother and I had a show together called Brothers Green. We had TV shows, we had a YouTube channel. I recently, about a year ago, year and a half ago, took over the channel and rebranded it Pro Home Cooks. We split creatively, together. We're still brothers, still friends, but just decided not to be in business after like, seven years together, or eight years, or it was a pretty long run. So, we started on Vimeo, and then we got picked up by this official cooking channel of YouTube that got us into YouTube. That channel ended up going out of business. Then we started our own YouTube channel, finally, and we also had a show on MTV. So, there were a few different revenue streams coming in at that time, but mainly after the TV show was over, it was our YouTube channel, which is bringing in you know, AdSense, and then branded deals, branded sponsorships on those videos. So, that was the business.


Jacques Hopkins  26:39

My YouTube channel isn't big enough to have any experience with, like, branded deals, right? I certainly make some from ad revenue, but my end game is to get my viewers to then eventually buy my course. I've got like 80,000 subscribers, which is like, 1/100th of yours.


Mike Greenfield  26:56

That's not bad. That's a solid group.


Jacques Hopkins  26:59

It's most of my traffic to a very, very healthy business, but my entire business model is the course. Right? Whereas for you, it sounds like, is it fair to say that at this point in time, ad revenue, sponsorship deals on videos, plus course revenue is like kind of the big three for you?


Mike Greenfield  27:17

That's the big three. And you know, it's interesting, because every business is always evolving and shifting, and mine has changed so much, and especially in the last year, as I've taken over the YouTube channel and rebranded. And I'm still figuring out the flow of those, I know that those right now are the big three. But it's like figuring out the balance of those things, where you want to put your effort, but yeah, to answer your question simply, that those are the big three.


Jacques Hopkins  27:46

Well, I'd love to talk about the sponsorship deals, and let's get back to the courses, because I don't have any experience, like I said, with the sponsorship deal. So, how does that usually work? Like, do you reach out to people? Do you have somebody in your team that reaches out to people, or are people constantly coming to you asking if they can make a deal with you?


Mike Greenfield  28:02

For the most part, people are reaching out to me. There are times where you know, I just say, I really love this brand, let me reach out and see what happens. I have an agent, so they would generally reach out, or just through Instagram. Instagram is one of the best ways to connect the brands, I might tag someone and just kind of put it out there and then they might come back at some point, but most of the time, it's a brand reaching out to me, because they've seen the content in some form.


Jacques Hopkins  28:29

Yeah, and is it typically just like a one-time fee, or do you get compensated based on how much the video ends up getting viewed? How does that work?


Mike Greenfield  28:38

Generally, it's... and I think all sponsorships are different. For me, I like working within the confines of you know, this is a one-time fee for this or it's like, you know, we want you to produce three videos, and here's the fee. I don't really work with view counts and things like that. Some brands will. You see this more and more, they want to require like you hit a certain amount of views, but that doesn't mean they're going to pay you less or more. It's just like, alright, you might owe us something extra. But, I generally just do you know, here's what we're going to pay you, and this is what you need to do.


Mike Greenfield  29:18

Okay, and at this point, over 2 million YouTube subscribers still consistently putting content out there, do you ever release a video that is not sponsored by somebody?


Mike Greenfield  29:28

I do. And, I definitely do. It depends on the time, you know, it's like the season of branding and you know, when things are hot and brands are coming in, it might fill up my production schedule. But you know, moving forward, that's actually something I want to focus on really figuring out a tighter production schedule where I'm just doing straight up releases - releases that are promoting my course - and then branded content. So again, it all comes down to balance. I've made a lot of mistakes in the past: branded content and with just how my production schedule works, but this is the type of game I'm in and you just kind of live and learn.


Jacques Hopkins  30:10

Alright, so let's go back to online courses. You get the idea around 2017. First course is Sourdough, I guess because you kind of got into this with fermentation. And so, you wanted to start there. You said you didn't know what you're doing? Like, how did you even go about from idea...


Mike Greenfield  30:27

No idea.


Jacques Hopkins  30:27

...to actually launching the course. What were those steps from you?


Mike Greenfield  30:30

I think the beginning was just intuition of like, alright, I'm making a course on sourdough. Like, I know how to produce content. So, that was a bonus, I knew how to produce content, which I feel like a lot of course creators, you know, maybe they're coming from the opposite perspective of like, maybe they know how to do the marketing or, you know, the curriculum or something, but like, the production could be a tougher aspect of what they're doing. So, for me, I knew how to produce content, could tell a story, and just kind of started putting together a curriculum, you know, with Sourdough. So, it was like, it was a nice first course, because it was simple enough, you know. You follow this is what you need to know - the equipment, and then I put in stuff that I was interested in: science, and you know, milling flowers, so like a few other extra elements to the course. And then just the process of making it. And I tried to do it in my own style, and, you know, just keeping in mind of the Sourdough.


Mike Greenfield  31:28

And also like, I was learning along the way, getting more confidence, because that was a big thing when I went into it, it's like, why should I be teaching people to make sourdough? I'm not an expert. So, I would go to like, I would go to baking classes and things like this. And they actually gave me more confidence because I realized, like, I, you know, I am, I did a little internship with this bakery, and what I, what I started to realize was like, alright, you can be the best baker in the world, but you don't necessarily know how to teach it. Or teach it in a way that someone's going to go out and try it. So, that like, was very helpful for me to just kind of go in with this attitude of like, alright, I'm not here to be the ultimate master in sourdough, I'm here to get you over some type of barrier. So, I'm sure you know, maybe it's similar with you, with the piano course. You know, I need to be the best at getting you over your fears, so you go on your own journey in some form, because that's what all of these things are. All these skills - piano, sourdough bread - there is no perfect way to do it but if I can get you started, you're hopefully going to become obsessed.


Mike Greenfield  32:44

And then so like, that's what I tried to do and that's what I kind of learned over time as a teacher and just went for it. And then as far as like, I made the course, knew nothing about marketing, started reading, of course, started reading books, and then I was working...


Jacques Hopkins  33:03

Let me stop you real quick, Mike...


Mike Greenfield  33:03



Jacques Hopkins  33:03

...because I want to dig into that a little bit, and then let's talk about like, what it looked like to actually launch it, but what you just said really speaks to me, because I know you don't know much about me, but I don't have any music degrees. Like, I'm not a world class pianist. In fact,...


Mike Greenfield  33:20

Just talking to you, I could tell, I'm like, "I bet your course is probably a similar attitude as mine."


Jacques Hopkins  33:25

Yeah, for sure. Like, I don't have all these credentials to teach piano and it's interesting to hear so many different people, yourself included, that have the same limiting belief. For some people it lasts like a minute, for some people it lasts for years, like, "Who am I to teach this?" Right? "Who am I to make a course on this subject?" And I think that's a big sticking point for people. You had it. It sounds like you got through it pretty quickly.


Mike Greenfield  33:51

Well, you know...


Jacques Hopkins  33:51

I certainly had it.


Mike Greenfield  33:52

...I think that timeline was not super quick. Maybe that sounded quicker, it did take me time. I think I made the course with like my attitude of just like, "Let me make a great course." And then through like marketing, figuring out the price of it, that's when I started getting probably more insecure, and then I realized maybe like within a year of like, okay, this is my role. This is what people are paying for and that's valuable. So, I did need some self-esteem building over time to get to that point.


Jacques Hopkins  34:25

Okay, well, you got there obviously and...


Mike Greenfield  34:27

I got there.


Jacques Hopkins  34:27

...you didn't have to know every single last detail there is to know about making sourdough bread to launch your course. You just had something. You had information/knowledge that you knew that a lot of other people didn't know that you were able to package up and sell in a digital product.


Mike Greenfield  34:44

There's a book, I'm sure you know it - Think and Grow Rich. It's like the original...


Jacques Hopkins  34:50

Yeah. Napoleon Hill.


Mike Greenfield  34:51

Yeah, exactly. And there's a page, I'm reading it for the first time, there's a page in there early on, and it's talking about this idea of knowledge and like, you know, to get rich to be successful, it has nothing to do with like how much knowledge you have. It's really about how you package that knowledge up, how you share that knowledge with other people. And it's just like, when I read that I'm like, that's like so spot on, you know. It's so true. That's what I've learned over these years with course building specifically. It's like, that's what you're doing as a course creator, you're just, you know, you're just doing your best to package up knowledge that can help people, but you don't need to be the best at that knowledge.


Jacques Hopkins  35:39

Yeah, exactly. And so, somebody that has played piano for 40 years, and is classically trained, and they were the long coattails and everything, like, if they try to explain a chord, to somebody that doesn't know what a chord is, or me over here, who is okay at the piano and was an electrical engineer for eight years, tries to explain a chord, like I can probably break it down for a beginner much, much better, right? And for you, and that, maybe, tell me if this ties into your brand. Your brand now is Pro Home Cooks, like you're not trying to teach people to be world class cooks, or chefs like you're trying to teach people to be able to utilize what they have in their kitchen better and cook better home cooked meals for their family. Is that fair?


Mike Greenfield  36:24

That's very fair. And that's something I had to learn over time, because even when I got into cooking, I had these ideas of being respected for cooking. I'm actually creating a course right now that is all about this, which we can talk about later. But, that was something that I had to break down within myself and kind of the journey I went on with cooking, which was starting, thinking that there was a certain way to cook, certain techniques that you needed to follow. And also, that like, getting respect for it was going to like do something for my ego or whatever.


Mike Greenfield  37:03

So, this idea of opening a restaurant and getting, you know, respect for that, that was stuff I broke down over time because I started to realize what cooking meant for me. And for me, it was really just about being the best cook for the people around me. And you know, it doesn't need to be amazing, it doesn't need to be perfect. You don't need to do it a certain way to feed your family, to feed your friends. But that took me years to really understand. And that's how the Pro Home Cooks ran, developed of just like, and also putting out YouTube videos and seeing how other people responded. But I really had to like, break down this idea of how, you know, what cooking is to me, and then how I want to teach people, or you know, how I want to spread that sort of philosophy to other people.


Jacques Hopkins  37:54

And it's obviously working. Now you keep saying the word cook. That's obviously in your brand name. What's there between a cook and a chef?


Mike Greenfield  38:01

I mean, a chef to me, I kind of used to call myself a chef, because that's what people know. That's what you know, they associate like, legitimate cooking with chef. So, the easiest way when I would tell people what I do, or what I am is just a chef. Now I don't because it's obviously not part of my brand. I think a cook is someone that isn't working in a restaurant, really. I would say that's the basics of it. I don't even think it has to do with training or anything like that. It's you know, you work in a restaurant, and you're a chef. I would say that is the basic definition.


Jacques Hopkins  38:42

Well, I think it makes you more relatable to like if it's Pro Home Chefs, it's like, "Okay, well, I don't really want to be a chef. I just want to cook for my family." So, it's Pro Home Cooks. Okay, that's more relatable.


Mike Greenfield  38:52

Exactly. And that's who I'm trying to connect with.


Jacques Hopkins  38:56

So, let's go back to where I cut you off, and you said you had an advantage and that you knew how to make videos. And typically, online courses, the content is packaged up in video form 99% of the time. So, you knew how to make videos, you kind of put together a step-by-step curriculum, then what? How did you launch it?


Mike Greenfield  39:17

I partnered with a marketing guy at first. And, you know, he was helping me, but he wasn't full on. At the time, I couldn't really pay someone to just like come in and really, you know, give me the help I needed to write up emails and just do the marketing base of the sales page. So, he was kind of coaching me into what to do. And I was putting together... and I was learning, I was reading books. He was telling me books to read that would help. And I really was just doing everything from scratch. Building out the sales page myself, building out all of the emails, building out automations and things on a very basic level obviously, because you know, I was a beginner at all of this. And that's how I launched. And yeah, that was pretty much the early days just doing every single element myself.


Jacques Hopkins  40:12

How'd the launch go?


Mike Greenfield  40:13

Not great. I think I put in more money than I made on the launch, you know, three years ago, I would say.


Jacques Hopkins  40:23

In terms of like ads or just in terms of like, time, and resources?


Mike Greenfield  40:28

In time and resources, hiring an editor. Yeah, time and resources. Like, you know, there wasn't this payoff that I was like, "That was worth it." And then I started questioning a lot of things. You know, over time, I knew I was happy, I built the course. One thing that I knew, and I still know, today, that's such a great experience about building a course, is that, you know, I live in a world of social media, of YouTube, of instant gratification of making a video, you know, thinking of an idea, making the video all within like two weeks, putting it out, seeing how it does, moving on. A course you know, there's something that it's just bringing together so many elements, especially now as I start working with other people. You're kind of writing a book in a way. That takes time. You're building out a curriculum, there's so many pieces that come together, and you have more time to really think about it. You have more time to build up self-esteem around it and confidence. And just the idea that like, "Alright, I made this. No one can take it away from me, I don't care how it does."


Mike Greenfield  41:37

So, that's one thing that I knew right away, even though it didn't do great at first, I was happy that like I took the risk and went through the process, or at least I enjoyed a bigger, piecing together of content, a bigger process of content generation, you could say. So that was nice. I felt that, for sure, compared to like this world of just YouTube videos every week.


Jacques Hopkins  42:03

Okay, so it was nice. You enjoyed the process. You took a risk. You launched it, but didn't really pay off like you wanted it to, so why not just throw that idea away and give up on courses?


Mike Greenfield  42:15

I almost... I don't think I gave up on courses, but I kind of gave up on like, I was really, you know, as a creator on YouTube as well, you are giving away content for free, so my first thought was like, I've got millions of fans, like they should all have this, you know, like maybe I could give it away for a much cheaper price or something. That was kind of the original idea. Like my self-esteem went down on the value of the course. So, I had to battle through that for sure. So, that was part of the journey. And yeah, so I kept, do you want me to kind of tell you how it developed into?


Jacques Hopkins  42:52

Yeah, really quickly. I see today, it looks like I can enroll for $197. Is that the price that you launched it in 2017?


Mike Greenfield  42:59

The price I launched that was... so you can enroll for $147. I think I launched at $97, I believe.


Jacques Hopkins  43:09

So, pretty close. Okay, I just wanted to get some context on the price.


Mike Greenfield  43:13

Yeah, and I've added things to the course. But yeah, it was somewhat close.


Jacques Hopkins  43:20

Keep going. I didn't want to stop you, but I wanted to add that little bit of context to when you're talking about "Should I make it cheaper?" Like you've got all these things going through your head.


Mike Greenfield  43:29

Yeah, because I don't know, you know, I've seen... the thing is there's other sourdough courses that are 10 bucks, you know, or whatever. So, like, that's all I had never seen a high-quality sourdough course out there or food course, really. So, I didn't know. I was confused. Definitely close to giving up. And then I met, I think what really changed it was I met, while I was going to work with this other marketing guy and that didn't work out for whatever reason, you know. He crunched some numbers, and it just didn't seem like it was the right fit. And then I met another partner. Now he's my partner in the courses. And he saw the potential of what was happening on the backend, even though it wasn't really bringing in that much money. I think just with the amount of emails coming in from funnels and things like that he could instantly spot potential of turning it into something that was at least you know, bringing in whatever passive income and we started working together to really optimize the entire marketing, just back end experience. The course was already made. And we also build out another course on kombucha at the same time, but I did it with his support with the curriculum. He knew more about this stuff. And again, just continued to optimize create a system that works within my YouTube videos and build that out. And that took some time, and then the big thing was, you know, COVID, lockdown happened, everyone was making sourdough bread, my system was already there, and the course took off from that point. So, it was like years of effort and optimizing and figuring out to kind of be set up for, for something like that to happen.


Jacques Hopkins  45:22

I feel very fortunate that I'm the piano guy in my business, and I'm also the marketing guy. Like, I probably like the marketing stuff more than the piano stuff, which is why we create a podcast like this, but most people are not like that. They want to stay in their lane of bird watching, or basket weaving, or cooking, or whatever their thing is, and they don't necessarily like the business and marketing stuff. Sounds like you're more in that category but as you tell your story, these like marketing guys keep popping up and like it's almost easy. Whereas a lot of people would probably really appreciate having somebody like that. How did these people come into your life seemingly so easily?


Mike Greenfield  46:06

Oh, I think it's like anything I wouldn't say was easily. I think, you know, my intentions were set and that they came in that way, but I ultimately, you know, I am a business guy. I love business. I'm not just the food guy. So, that is a passion of mine. But marketing is not. I know marketing, you know, you can't avoid it. I know how essential it is. So, I'm not like, in denial, especially now seeing how it works. But I definitely knew that my life would be better if I found someone that was passionate about it, that could dedicate all this time. Because in the beginning, when I was doing it all, it was just way too much for me with everything else I've got going on. I just wasn't good enough at it. And I didn't like it enough. So yeah, it was kind of putting my attentions out and, you know, hoping that someone would come through. And again, it wasn't like me, I went through different people. Now I have a partner in it that is great. But it took time.


Jacques Hopkins  47:07

So, now I know you're working on a new course that I want to talk about here in a little bit, but right now if I go to your site, there's two courses I can buy. The two we've talked about, Sourdough University, Kombucha University. I see now where it's Sourdough is $147. Looking now, Kombucha is the same, $147. So, like, how this going now? Like, fast forward today like, are new people enrolling every day? Like, a few a week? Like, how's it going?


Mike Greenfield  47:34

Yeah, it um, ultimately, it's going great. It took time. The COVID was kind of the initial blast off of like, again, all the hard work of putting in these systems building out these courses to like, alright, now this thing is selling great and I don't have to worry about like, is the cost right, or something like that. So, that was the initial payoff. And now it's just about continuing to optimize, but you know, it's selling. I'm enrolling students every single day, and the University continues to build. And that's really my goal, I think, as a YouTube creator, like you talked about, when I got into it, how I got into it, probably something deep inside of me was like, and I still fight with this, you know, getting out of the social media world. Like, we need social media, like you, obviously, you're taking advantage of all these subscribers you have on YouTube. But, social media can be a bit toxic, and it's very out of your control of just, you know, what the algorithms are going to do, and what people are going to like, and what's going to be trendy or whatever. And I think deep down inside, you know, this course business and building out from Cook's University was a chance to take back a little more control and build something that was just out of this social media system.


Mike Greenfield  49:05

So, I always wanted to build something out bigger. A place where I could educate and do what I wanted to do. Whereas, like I said before, with YouTube, there's a specific way, you have to play that game in some degree. And that's like, that can grind you down a bit. So, I love this space where I can, you know, do what I want and teach people how I want and say what I want. I don't know if that answered your... I know your question is more specific on how it's doing, but yeah, I kind of just went on a tangent there.


Jacques Hopkins  49:34

No, it's good. It's good. It's good stuff. I mean, you're, what you're saying is that if all of your revenue is generated via your YouTube channel, then it's kind of putting all your eggs in the Google basket.


Mike Greenfield  49:45



Jacques Hopkins  49:45

And you don't really have full ownership of anything that way. And by diversifying these courses, putting them on your own domain, it's another revenue stream, but this time, like you just own it all. You can call all the shots you can play by your own rules. And that makes you feel good.


Mike Greenfield  50:02

It definitely feels... I always suggest this to people on social media that they have their own business outside of it, or they're selling something outside of it. And I know that was actually very hard for me to accept when I was, you know, getting into this, or when I wasn't in courses and building out courses, but it just is nice knowing that, yeah, like you said, all your eggs aren't in that basket, because you just never really know what's going to happen. I mean, it could shut down tomorrow, and I feel like now I'd be alright, you know, I would be able to financially work my way around it.


Jacques Hopkins  50:43

Because you're a course creator now, Mike!


Mike Greenfield  50:45

Because I'm a course creator. Yeah, exactly.


Jacques Hopkins  50:49

So, you're kind of talking as if you've seen The Social Dilemma.


Mike Greenfield  50:52

I have seen The Social Dilemma.


Jacques Hopkins  50:54

Thoughts? Other than what you've said already.


Mike Greenfield  50:57

You know, at first, it's like, you have these negative thoughts. I think it's definitely a hit piece on social media and a lot of ways because you're focusing on the negative aspects. And then you're going to react in that way. So, at first, that's how I reacted like, "Oh, my God, this is awful." Obviously, it's not all awful. I, you know, I can't hate on it too much considering I play these algorithms. This is how I make a business. This is how I inspire people. But everything is a balance and there are a lot of unhealthy aspects about it. And there are unhealthy aspects that I take, you know, that I live for sure just being a creator. Every creator is dealing with that, too. It's not just people watching social media, which I do as well. So, I have mixed feelings on it, but I do feel like, you know, mixed feelings to the point where I don't want to dedicate my life to this and like, think that it's going to last forever.


Jacques Hopkins  51:54

Got it. Okay, so you are now an established course creator, and you've got two courses, and you have a new course coming out. I'm looking at your website right now, it says, new course ready to break free of recipes for good and cook new, unique, delicious meals every night. Sounds good.


Mike Greenfield  52:11



Jacques Hopkins  52:12

Stay tuned for the launch of my new course, Conquer the Kitchen, on January 19. So, that'll be right around when this episode comes out, probably. So, I definitely advise listeners to go check that out. But now that you are an experienced course creator, what is this launch going to look like for you?


Mike Greenfield  52:31

Yeah, that's a good question. I… what’s it going to look like…  Well, first, I'm creating the course right now. It's been a beast of a course to create, and I think the most exciting part about this journey is that I have some more resources now. So, I can create a course. I can, you know, get proper branding and animations, and in my production has gotten better. I'm working with more people for the course so that's been awesome. What's being created, I'm very proud of and I think it's very unique. Ultimately, these other courses like Sourdough, Kombucha, they had a specific, you know, a specific thing that I was trying to teach people how to do. So, you can build a curriculum pretty easily around that. This course was more of a scary challenge, you could say. This course was more of a challenge, I always knew is something that I would want to do, kind of like my cooking manifesto, like my own culinary school. But to do that, it's like, I'm making this completely from scratch. So, it's been a very fun challenge to build out the curriculum, and figure out how it works, and really pump up the production value, but I'm just excited. So yeah, so I'm just very excited about the launch. Yeah, I think it's unique, and there's other cooking style classes out there, but I feel like it just has its own unique place in the world of online education.


Jacques Hopkins  54:14

It sounds like it's going to be great and I'm interested to be honest with you. I'm an amateur cook myself, like that's one of my favorite hobbies and I've seen several of your YouTube videos, and I'm excited to see what that's going to look like, a course like that. But...


Mike Greenfield  54:28

You say you're an amateur cook so like how do you feel in the kitchen? Are you confident in the kitchen? Like, you can go in and kind of just whip some stuff up?


Jacques Hopkins  54:38

Yeah, I can. That's actually like, so my wife and I probably split the cooking duties pretty 50/50, but we're completely different styles like she's got to have a recipe, right? Whereas, I can just kind of whip something up. She's like, that's not me, like, I don't understand how you do that. But I have a lot to learn, as well. And look, I'm down here in South Louisiana, like a lot of what I cook is like Cajun style.


Jacques Hopkins  55:00

Like, I can whip up a gumbo and a jambalaya, and étouffée pretty quickly, but there's certainly a lot of cuisines that I would just have no idea what to do.


Mike Greenfield  55:00

Yeah, great food.


Mike Greenfield  55:01

Yeah, yeah, interesting now, because I think you know, one of the main goals is really someone like your wife, to kind of get them over that barrier of like breaking free of the recipe, but at the same time, there's so much skill also that I'm sure you can learn from things in the course, as well.


Jacques Hopkins  55:25

Well, I mean, just this morning, I watched a video from you about salad that was like, 20 minutes long. And like, you talked about... it was awesome, because you didn't just give recipes for salad dressing, you said, "Okay, I want you to be able to just take something, whatever you already have in your fridge, no matter who you are, and make a delicious salad dressing based on that without having to go to the store and get a list of ingredients." And you're actually teaching like the whys behind everything and not just the how, which, I mean, a lot of ways that's kind of what I try to do with piano, I always tell people like, I don't want you to come back to me every time you want to learn a new song. I want to give you the tools you can to go learn whatever song it is you want to learn after completing my course.


Mike Greenfield  56:08

Yeah, I wonder if there's a correlation here with piano and cooking. I'm sure there is because what I learned through making this course was this like, this idea of culinary school, for instance, all of that is built off training chefs. You know, that's really the idea - training chefs to go into restaurants. And there's never been a training program to train home cooks to just produce great food for their families. And that was becoming very clear to me as I was continuing to build up the course and make the course. And I wonder with something like piano, is it the same idea? Is it like coming from this classical idea of like training, you know, proper piano? Whereas like, some people just want to, you know, enjoy, and have fun.


Jacques Hopkins  56:59

I think there definitely is, and I love the name Conquer the Kitchen. I think it's going to be cool. I'm curious to see what it looks like, and I bet you get a lot of successful students going through there.


Mike Greenfield  57:09



Jacques Hopkins  57:10

But I want to focus on the marketing and sales side of things on it. Like, what is the launch going to look like? Like, are you sending out emails to an email list? Are you making a video on YouTube announcing the launch of it? Like, what does it look like for you?


Mike Greenfield  57:24

You know, for what we've learned over on my team is that launches, like I've never had the most successful launches of courses, because my content is very evergreen, just like a piano course, you know. It's very evergreen. And then I have this constant content being put out on YouTube. So, this time, we're doing it a little differently. We're not super concerned about this, like big launch, like there's a deadline, you know, you got to finish the course, but it's really about for me, it's like, alright, this course is awesome, just focus on making an incredible, and then spend the next few years like optimizing because that's what I learned with Sourdough. It shot off three years after I made it or something like that; two years. That was a valuable lesson of, you know, build the system. So, like, what we do is, you know, we build out funnels that get promoted within the YouTube videos, try to build viral videos around the course. Generally, I've never been successful at like directly marketing my course on YouTube. I've learned the hard way with a few videos where I, you know, try to push people directly to, say, a sales page, and it's just like, "We're not buying from you. What is this?' You know, "You've been giving us free stuff forever." So, it's kind of optimizing over time.


Mike Greenfield  58:44

And then also a big thing that like, the big risk I'm taking for this that feels great is I'm going to be building out a book around the course, because I put so much time into the curriculum. And the curriculum is really unique and very helpful. So, I'm currently building out a book, as well. It's going to be very unique, not like your normal cookbook. And that will have so much marketing potential because one I'll just be able to give... people will now have the option to get into this world of Conquer the Kitchen at an affordable, you know, very affordable cost in the book. And then of course, if they want to go on to, you know, the deeper course the video content, they can do that. So, that's going to be really interesting. I don't even know how it's going to work but I know I'm going to make it - the book - and then figure that out.


Jacques Hopkins  59:37

Do you know what a funnel is?


Mike Greenfield  59:39

Oh, yeah, of course.


Jacques Hopkins  59:41

Do you have any funnels?


Mike Greenfield  59:41

So yeah, that's like the, you know, the simple version of the way I market the course is I put out a video that's giving away some type of PDF or some you know, so like, I had a really successful sourdough video. It has over 4 million hits and it offers these really great Sourdough Baking Guides that help you, you know, you print them out. And people love these guides. And they, you know, they can follow the steps to make sourdough, That funnels people into a marketing automation.


Jacques Hopkins  1:00:14

Great. So, there's a link to that free PDF, probably under that 4 million hit video, people get that then you have some automated emails that go out.


Mike Greenfield  1:00:23

That same type of thing is going on throughout my YouTube channel in different ways. So, like, from that I built my email list out to a really substantial email list over the last few years from zero. Like when I started, and I didn't mention this, but when I started my course creation and the marketing, I really thought I'm like, "I've got a million followers on YouTube." Right? Like I can at least, you know, I can get at some of these people maybe like half a percent, and I tried to market directly to them through a YouTube video and it was just a backfire. A straight backfire. And that's when I learned I need an email list. And then I'm like, "Argh!" Like, I felt like my YouTube channel was my email list. But you know, everyone works differently. And people buy things more from the security of email, I guess, or whatever. So, I had to build out an email list from scratch.


Jacques Hopkins  1:01:21

Well, it's more than the security of email, it's more about the funnel. Right? If you just promote a direct, "Hey, buy this course on YouTube." Then you're asking them to go from, like almost nothing to spending $150. Whereas a funnel will just like, slowly warm them up, warm them up, warm up, you know. And then, you mentioned the book and like, that's what really spurred me to ask you about funnels, is because I think writing a book is a phenomenal idea, but make sure it's part of a funnel. Like, you want to buy the $10 book, but make sure you have ways to then get them on your email list to then sell them the new course. Which is going to be priced at what by the way?


Mike Greenfield  1:01:58

The new course, we're still figuring that out right now. It will be higher than... there's more to it than the Sourdough. So, but we're still working on the back end there.


Jacques Hopkins  1:02:09

How big is your email list now?


Mike Greenfield  1:02:11

My email list is around 300,000 people.


Jacques Hopkins  1:02:14

Goodness gracious man. And you just started that in 2017?


Mike Greenfield  1:02:20

That went from zero to... yeah. But a lot of that was like, built on Sourdough just like, you know, people. That's the thing. I had all of these funnels on my channel all over, you know, on these different videos. And then when sourdough got big, it's like so many people wanted these PDFs, and it just grew like crazy.


Jacques Hopkins  1:02:46

What platform are you using for the emails?


Mike Greenfield  1:02:50

Um, I use ActiveCampaign.


Jacques Hopkins  1:02:53



Mike Greenfield  1:02:54

Yeah. You relate on that?


Jacques Hopkins  1:02:56

I was thinking you were going to say ConvertKit. Guys, like you usually go for ConvertKit. But, I approve of ActiveCampaign.


Mike Greenfield  1:03:01

Okay, why guys like me?


Jacques Hopkins  1:03:04

Well, typically bloggers, I know you're not a blogger, but like, you're not like, you're clearly more passionate about the cooking itself, and maybe the overarching business overall, than the marketing specifically. Right?


Mike Greenfield  1:03:18

I can tell you right now, the only reason I'm on Active Campaign is because the initial marketing guy I was partnering with...


Jacques Hopkins  1:03:24

Recommended it.


Mike Greenfield  1:03:24

Yeah, I would have not. It's way too complex, like, if I... Not that it's complex but like, it feels a little more on the nerdy side of marketing, I'm sure just from like, the way it works.


Jacques Hopkins  1:03:37

It is you can get far nerdier. And that's one of the reasons I like ActiveCampaign is because I feel like it's a good balance of all these crazy features versus user-friendliness. But Active Campaign is one of my favorite tools that I use.


Mike Greenfield  1:03:50

Oh, nice.


Jacques Hopkins  1:03:51

Okay, so your team? How big is your team? How many people? Got to be a lot right?


Mike Greenfield  1:03:57

On my course or my business?


Jacques Hopkins  1:03:59

Just overall your business? Because your courses, I mean, your courses are just one aspect of the business. Right? You have team members that work on multiple aspects?


Mike Greenfield  1:04:08

Yeah. So, I have an assistant. I have an editor. I have a designer.


Jacques Hopkins  1:04:15

Video editor?


Mike Greenfield  1:04:16

Video editor. Yeah, I edit videos, as well, but I also have an editor, like, the course is being completely edited by my editor. And then I have a marketing partner on the courses. He also helps me build up the curriculum. And then, I think, uh, and then I've been, you know, working with an illustrator. There are freelance people here and there, but I think the foundation would be four people.


Jacques Hopkins  1:04:39

Are those employees. I know you have one partnership but the other people. Employees?


Mike Greenfield  1:04:43

No actual employees. All contractor-base.


Jacques Hopkins  1:04:47

Pretty cool, man. How's that going? Are you managing the team, or do you have somebody managing the team for you?


Mike Greenfield  1:04:54

Yeah, I manage the team. Again, it's interesting, you know, building a digital business. It's like, it's not your normal business that you know, from the past where you need all these employees and like, you know, you can work with contractors, you know, you hire them for a job and you're not working with them. So, like, you can get a lot done without building out some massive team. So, I'm figuring all this stuff out, but it's just really cool running a digital business.


Jacques Hopkins  1:05:23

Yeah, I have eight people in my team. Also, no full-time employees.


Jacques Hopkins  1:05:28

Nice. Yeah. Wow. So, who do you have? What's your team made up of?


Jacques Hopkins  1:05:33

So, I do have a Director of Operations, which is kind of new in the past three and a half months, and she at this point, like, is pretty much full time, but she's not an actual employee, but probably will be at some point. Um, so that is great, because she manages the team and the projects now. Right? And she kind of manages like the day to day so I can stay up here at the higher level. Right?


Mike Greenfield  1:05:59

Yeah, I like that.


Jacques Hopkins  1:06:00

Yeah, it's good.


Mike Greenfield  1:06:02

That's goals right there, for sure.


Jacques Hopkins  1:06:05

Well, I'll tell you what, I mean, I think at your level, one resource I would recommend to you is starting with a type of person called an OBM, which stands for Online Business Manager. And it's an actual certification that people get.


Mike Greenfield  1:06:22

Oh, interesting.


Jacques Hopkins  1:06:23

And typically, the role of an OBM is they wear several hats. They'll do team management, they'll do project management, they'll do operations management, and then they'll do metrics management. And actually, I hired Colleen, as kind of an OBM right at first, but she was in the middle of her Director of Operations training, and she's finished that now. And I mean, there's not a ton of difference between the two, it's kind of like an advanced OBM. So, I would start there, you can go to OnlineBusinessManager.com. That's what I did. And you fill out an RFP for free, and then all these OBMs start applying to your job.


Mike Greenfield  1:07:03

Interesting, that's crazy that that's a role.


Jacques Hopkins  1:07:06

It is.


Mike Greenfield  1:07:07

But it, like, makes a lot of sense.


Jacques Hopkins  1:07:10

I'm telling you, man.


Mike Greenfield  1:07:11

And they'll have a degree in that.


Jacques Hopkins  1:07:12

Right. It's like a little three- or six-months certification that somebody can get and, you know, I wasn't even looking at, like college degrees or anything. I was looking at that certification and experience. And it's been a game changer, man, just to get out of the weeds of the day to day, you know. I have two YouTube channels, I have a podcast, I have courses, and like, if somebody can just...


Mike Greenfield  1:07:34

I'm sure... I'm like that would be, I can just even, I'm thinking about that... I'm like, "Whoa, what would I do?" You know, like, the amount of space that would probably free up.


Jacques Hopkins  1:07:44

Yeah, so I certainly have like an Executive Assistant, as well. She's been with me for like, four years and is completely invaluable, too. Podcast editor, video editor, graphic designer, recently hired somebody to do transcriptions full time.


Mike Greenfield  1:08:03



Jacques Hopkins  1:08:03

Like 40 hours a week in the Philippines, like, all the content that we spit out from the YouTube channels, the courses, the podcasts, like, just somebody that can go in and put a really good touch on manually transcribing stuff. Because I don't know, if you like, run your videos and through rev.com to get those nice captions done, but that can...


Mike Greenfield  1:08:17

I don't.


Jacques Hopkins  1:08:24

That can really add up, costs can really add up. So, we're actually saving money now because we're spending over $1,000 a month on rev.com. And now we have, you know, now we have somebody to do that dedicatedly.


Mike Greenfield  1:08:37

That's great. That's great. So, I had a question for you. So right now, like you say, you know, like up here for you, you said you love the marketing side, and then of course, like piano, like the creative side. What is your role?


Jacques Hopkins  1:08:58

So, my goal is to only do the things that I have to and want to do. Right? Nothing else.


Mike Greenfield  1:09:05

Yeah, so I guess, what do you want to do?


Jacques Hopkins  1:09:08

What do I want to do?


Mike Greenfield  1:09:10

Because like, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know too much about your business. Obviously, you know, I read up a little bit about what's going on. You have, you know, the 21-day piano course that, you know, you build out, you have this passive income but outside of that, I don't know anything. So, what are you doing?


Jacques Hopkins  1:09:28

Yeah, so my, my goals in life, from a business perspective are really two things. It's one is to truly help as many people or help as many people truly learn piano. And two is to help as many people truly succeed with online courses.


Mike Greenfield  1:09:46

Got it.


Jacques Hopkins  1:09:47

I have been in a place of very much struggling with both, which is one of the reasons I'm passionate about both, but at the end of the day, that's my want, that's my end goal. That's very broad, right. What are the specifics behind that look like? Well, I have a business that has both of those things, and I don't plan to do anything else. And within that, we have a team that helps me accomplish these things. And so, specifically, what do I want to need to be doing? Well, for the most part, I'm the one on camera, right? I'm the face behind it. I'm doing the podcast interviews. I'm the one teaching piano. Now, I do have plans to have other piano teachers involved as well. But that's kind of the main thing, like be the face be on camera, and then just be the CEO. Right? And make sure...


Mike Greenfield  1:10:33

That's the same idea over here. And that's the ultimate goal, right?


Jacques Hopkins  1:10:37

Yeah, exactly. And there's a book called Traction. Have you ever heard of Traction?


Mike Greenfield  1:10:44



Jacques Hopkins  1:10:44

It's one of the first, it may even be the author, maybe even the person that kind of invented this concept. But he, the premise is that there really should be two main roles toward the top of a company to really succeed, you should have the Visionary and the Integrator. Right? So, The Visionary is the idea person, big picture direction of the company. and The Integrator is the one that...


Mike Greenfield  1:11:08

Makes it happen.


Jacques Hopkins  1:11:09

...implements the ideas, right. And so that's what I want to be the Visionary of my company. I want to be the one to keep moving it forward, keep innovating, and so on. And now I have somebody like Colleen that can take my ideas and help make them reality without me having to get too much in those weeds.


Mike Greenfield  1:11:27

Yeah, I love that. I love that. I mean, I forget, I just read a book that was recommended by my marketing partner. I forgot the name of it, but the concept was more about just like, you should be doing, you know, this one main thing in your business. You know, what is like your ultimate... what is the most valuable part of your brain that is going to bring you success? It's not all of these other things. And just like, you need to be doing that thing that no one else can do. So, like for you, yeah, host, you know, doing the piano. For me, it's same thing, it's like being the host, being the face coming up with the creative stuff.


Jacques Hopkins  1:12:08

Yeah, if you could, especially once you launch this new course, and you can just like live off of these three courses for a while, meaning you don't necessarily need to make any more for a while, like, your job could be coming up with ideas for YouTube videos, and then being the one on camera. Like, you can even outsource the scripting of those.


Mike Greenfield  1:12:26

Yeah, that's kind of how I feel right now. It's like, alright, you know, I just had a baby. I like, made a course within that. And now it's like, alright, I can chill on the courses for a while and just focus on like, optimizing business and YouTube, and all of that for at least a year.


Jacques Hopkins  1:12:42

It's a good place to be, isn't it?


Mike Greenfield  1:12:44

Yeah. It's nice. It's nice. Yeah, I just have like, yesterday, because now when you're in, when you're course-building, and making it, it's like, you know, your brain is in a million directions. So now that I'm coming out of it a bit, I'm like, all right, this next year is going to be fun. You know, that was like, got that done with.


Jacques Hopkins  1:13:03

How's uh... So, first kid, right?


Mike Greenfield  1:13:05

Yeah. First kid.


Jacques Hopkins  1:13:07

How's adjusting to being a dad and running a business?


Mike Greenfield  1:13:11

I mean, it's wild, to be honest, I think I've learned... I actually did another interview this morning, and a similar question came up, but I think the main thing I've learned is to be less attached to like, the way you think things are going to move. Because when you don't have a kid, it just seems like you have more control over your destiny a little bit. Like, you know, you can plan out your time and like, alright, if you're, you know, if you need to make this course, and you've got to spend a week just crunching like, you can do it. Whereas now it's like, I don't have that option. And things are just like, yeah, you have a week where your baby's not sleeping, and like, all right, well, I didn't expect that one. Whereas you didn't have that issue when you didn't have a kid. But things are still going well in my business ultimately, and they're still growing. They're just not... it doesn't look like or it's not at the pace, or it's all jumbled. Whereas before it just felt different. So, I've learned to just like, release attachment to the way I think things should look, because with a kid it's like, it's just insane.


Jacques Hopkins  1:14:23

It's a lot different.


Mike Greenfield  1:14:24

It's a lot different. What about you? What can you teach me having you know, two kids being through this? I'm just getting started.


Jacques Hopkins  1:14:31

Well, you know, you're a lot further ahead than I was when we had our first kid. So, my oldest is five and a half now. And for me, when we had our daughter like the plan was always for my wife to quit her job and stay home. And so, that happened. Back then, I was working as an electrical engineer full time.


Mike Greenfield  1:14:53



Jacques Hopkins  1:14:54

I had started Piano In 21 Days in 2013, but it was making about $1,000 a month. So, I had my income plus a little bit from this thing. And so...


Mike Greenfield  1:15:05

How did you feel about $1,000 a month? Were you like pumped on that, or you're like, alright, this has a lot more potential?


Jacques Hopkins  1:15:10

I knew it had potential. And I didn't know how to get it there yet, but I was determined to. I've certainly a lot better, like the marketing side of things today than I was back then, but like, you know, you started reading books, you started learning from other people that knew what they were doing - that's what I was doing too - but I decided to quit my job, or we decided when my little girl was six months old. Which is yours is seven, your daughter is seven months old now?


Mike Greenfield  1:15:35



Jacques Hopkins  1:15:36

So, imagine like quitting your job right now, your wife's not working, and you're only making $1,000 a month.


Mike Greenfield  1:15:42

It's interesting, though, that that's like, not that my life has gone like that, but we left Brooklyn. you know, we were living there, I had my studio there and like, made these decisions that we didn't think we were going to make. So, like still these radical decisions when we had a kid and did not expect any of that to happen. So, I can relate to just like, the chaos of it, and it not looking like you think it's going to look.


Jacques Hopkins  1:16:09

Yeah. So, we had built up some savings because that wasn't enough for me, for us to live on, especially long term. So, we fortunately had up to a year to live very frugally, and it did not work. And it was about 10 months in before it finally started working, which was about one month after my wife told me she was pregnant with our second kid.


Mike Greenfield  1:16:32



Jacques Hopkins  1:16:33

So, fortunately, things really came together. And to be honest, I tell this story all the time to my audience. But the big game changer that there's like one thing that I implemented...


Mike Greenfield  1:16:42



Jacques Hopkins  1:16:43

...that took me like 10X like, $1,000 to $10,000 a month.


Mike Greenfield  1:16:46



Jacques Hopkins  1:16:47

You know what that thing is?


Mike Greenfield  1:16:48

I would love to know.


Jacques Hopkins  1:16:49

Half the podcast listeners are probably like, screaming what the answer is, because I've said it so much. It was a really good evergreen funnel. I don't...


Mike Greenfield  1:16:57

So, like, an actual specific thing.


Jacques Hopkins  1:17:00

Yeah, so our businesses are very different, right? You probably get a lot more traffic, you've got multiple courses, you bring in revenue from ads, and sponsorship deals like, my business is like, "I'm going to try to sell as many copies of one course as possible." And that's 99% of my revenue, right? I recommend keyboards here and there, I get some Amazon affiliate income, but that's almost nothing. So, for me having one really good evergreen funnel that I can then take all my traffic and bring them into the beginning of the funnel. If you went to PianoIn21Days.com, you can’t actually buy it there. But what you can do is download my free workbook of the first five days, and that's the start of an evergreen funnel.


Mike Greenfield  1:17:45

And your traffic, you said there's your YouTube audience. What else is... do you have an email list? I'm guessing. What's your traffic?


Mike Greenfield  1:17:52

That's great.


Jacques Hopkins  1:17:52

Yeah, so YouTube, organic, I do YouTube Ads, I do Google Ads, I do Bing Ads, or Facebook Ads, and then I also do have a good Google SEO presence as well. So, if you type in things like how to play piano, learn piano, typically, I'll show up three times actually on the first page. A video, a YouTube video...


Jacques Hopkins  1:18:08

...an Ad, and an organic result as well. So, I've got a pretty diversified traffic stream, right? I would bet...


Mike Greenfield  1:18:21

I thought you would be like, what about like, philosophically of like, having a kid? Is there anything, like, outside of like specific, technical, you know, marketing? Is there anything that helped you?


Jacques Hopkins  1:18:33

I got off on a tangent a little bit. It's...


Mike Greenfield  1:18:37

No, no, no, but I totally appreciate that, as well. I mean, that's important.


Jacques Hopkins  1:18:40

The biggest thing for me is trying to not always look to the future, like, "Oh, I can't wait till she's two, I can't wait till she's three," and so on, because my wife and I have set up our lives this way, on purpose. Like, this is what we always wanted. We didn't always want to...


Mike Greenfield  1:18:54

Keep on doing it. Yeah.

Jacques Hopkins  1:18:54

That's why one of the first things we did when I quit my job was we went to France for three months, with an eight-month-old baby, because that's the type of thing we always wanted to be able to do.


Mike Greenfield  1:19:10

That's just funny, because we have the same sort of goal, like I want to, I want to be able to, you know, first of all my wife, you know, be able to start her own business and do her own thing, but also go to France or Italy for three months and just film content, and just like, yeah, like, just live in that world for a bit with kids or whatever it looks like. So interesting. Similar goals.


Jacques Hopkins  1:19:35

Yeah. Now it's one thing to say that it's another thing to do it right. Say, "Hey, Mike, make sure you live in the present more." Well, that's hard to do.


Mike Greenfield  1:19:43



Jacques Hopkins  1:19:43

Right? So, one thing I found especially lately is getting out of the day to day actually helps a good bit with that. So, let me ask you this. Could you just like, take off for four or six weeks and do nothing inside your business?


Mike Greenfield  1:19:59



Jacques Hopkins  1:19:59

Why not?


Mike Greenfield  1:20:00

Well, right now, like if I were just to go tomorrow...


Jacques Hopkins  1:20:04

Because of the course launch.


Mike Greenfield  1:20:06

I mean, like, I would have to maybe set some things up. But like, yeah, I'm making a book and like, I'm doing things and producing YouTube. I mean, as far as financially, I'd be alright. But I don't know if that's your question. Like, for my business just to keep burning away. I don't, I don't know.


Jacques Hopkins  1:20:25

Yeah. It's, I don't, honestly don't know quite what the question even is, you can answer it however you want. Like, have you ever read anything by Mike Michalowicz?


Mike Greenfield  1:20:33



Jacques Hopkins  1:20:34

One of his books is called Clockwork, and he said...


Mike Greenfield  1:20:38

Oh, I have read Clockwork, or part of it.


Jacques Hopkins  1:20:40

Have you read Profit First? That's his big one, Profit First. But like he's a small business author, and like one of his big messages throughout all of his books is like, "Hey, you are awesome. You started a business from nothing out of thin air, you made something happen. And for that, you should be rewarded. You should be able to pay yourself bonuses." And one of the things he says in Clockwork is and this is, like he takes a very hard stance on this, he's like, you need to schedule a four-week vacation, where you don't check in on work even one time. And if you don't have the type of business where you can do that, then you have the wrong business.


Mike Greenfield  1:21:15

Yeah, that's interesting. I feel like I'm not there yet but would like to get there for sure and need that. Because you're right, as a business owner, you can just get so caught up in the day to day.


Jacques Hopkins  1:21:34

Yes. So, I wish I had some more like profound wisdom about the kid but it's like...


Mike Greenfield  1:21:38

Yeah. I like it.


Jacques Hopkins  1:21:39

Spend as much time as possible with them and try not to look ahead too much. That's kind of my biggest things. So, for you, I mean, not necessarily as a course creator, we've kind of established where the revenue comes in but in your business, is there any one thing or like the best day that you've had because of the business that you've created?


Mike Greenfield  1:22:00

As far as, yeah, I mean, as far as my course, it was, like when COVID hit, it was pretty, it was pretty crazy. Just the amount of people coming into the Sourdough Course was amazing. So, there were just a few months there were like, everyone was talking about sourdough bread, you know, news channels, flour was selling out. And then meanwhile, you know, I have this course, that I built out years ago that like the marketing was optimized that was ready to like, capitalize off this moment. And that was like, such a massive moment for me and business, because it taught me that you've got to trust yourself, you know, and that is the most, I think that might be the most valuable thing I've ever learned, because I went out and I made a course on sourdough bread and just took a risk. Took time off YouTube took like, five months off YouTube, just because I'm like, I need a break. And let me do this. And at the time, I, you know, I believed in it, but it didn't pay off till years later. So, what I learned was that, just continue to trust yourself; your own intuition on business and what you want to do, but don't worry about like, instant payoff. You know, don't worry about when it's going to, or if you're even going to get paid off for it, it might be another project. But I knew I'm like, okay, this works. And like, it happened three years later, and I just had to, like, continue to trust myself. So now when I go into a project, I just have more confidence, like, it could fail, but like, all I can do, like this thing works before, like, all I can do is take the same process of like trusting myself over and over and just seeing what the universe you know, decides.


Jacques Hopkins  1:23:51

Yeah, and like it happened. And then you saw this craze happening. So, you scrambled to put out a sourdough bread course, to try to fill that need in the market. It was there. And people were finding you and you were reaping the benefits. And they were reaping the benefits of you having already created the course, too.


Mike Greenfield  1:24:07

Exactly. And that's how I feel about course creation in general, and you know, online education. It's like, the world is moving in that direction, and it's pretty cool to kind of be ahead of it a bit. I'm sure you feel the same way of like, you're already, you've been in this game, and you can bring people in, and that's a nice, nice feeling as people, you know, work more digitally and remote, and whatever. It's like, alright, I'm here to educate you.


Jacques Hopkins  1:24:35

So that's a pretty good segue into like my last just, kind of big question for you that I would love for you to answer before we get out of here, and that is more of beginner advice. So, we talked about earlier, you talked about like, Think and Grow Rich, and just packaging up knowledge, so you've been at this a long time. And sometimes it's not even best to hear from people that have been doing it a long time. We talked about that too. But if you were to advise somebody who is at the beginning stages and they have something to offer to somebody, they have this knowledge inside of them that they could teach to other people; what is your perspective, what is your advice on how to get started? Is it to start with YouTube? And maybe a year later make a course? Should we start with a course? What does Mike Greenfield have to say?


Mike Greenfield  1:25:18

Okay, good question. So, I think it's funny, I was on a Teachable, my courses are hosted on Teachable, and I was on a panel, and I was with three other people, and then me, and these other people were more like, marketing heavy on like, you know, their courses were like how to make a course, and they were very, you know, they had specific things. Like, they kept saying these, like, people wanted to know, like, everyone wants to know, what's the path. You know, like, give me the path to like, be successful. And that's not how the world works. You know, you need to figure out your own path, the internet, there's just endless options, and I had to figure it out over you know, the truth is, it's just hard work, sticking with it, trusting myself and figuring this, over years of what worked for my business. That's the best advice I would give, there is no official way to do it. Don't, you know, listen to anyone who says there's like a perfect way and trust yourself and just do it. Just do it. And again, like, I can't say YouTube would be the way because maybe you don't like YouTube, or just, you know, through ads or whatever. I don't think there is one way, but I think if you're inspired by it, just trust yourself, and like, you'll figure out the marketing. And you'll figure that out over time.


Jacques Hopkins  1:26:46

So, for you, like, you were inspired by, I guess you started with just a very sub niche of cooking of fermentation. And for you, you just started putting some content out there. And I think you even said that was Vimeo at first.


Mike Greenfield  1:27:00

Oh, yeah. I mean, if you talk about like, my initial career, it was yeah, I was inspired. And I wanted to do a cooking content. I put out stuff on Vimeo and then just, it led, you know, all over the place. Wild, wild journey to get there.


Jacques Hopkins  1:27:13

It sounds like at the end of the day, your advice is to like, just go do something.


Mike Greenfield  1:27:17



Jacques Hopkins  1:27:17

Like, don't do nothing, just do something.


Mike Greenfield  1:27:20

Definitely just do things. Because as far as like creators, you know, people want things to be... one of the biggest setbacks for creators is that they want things to be perfect right away. And that's not how it works, either. You know, it's messy. And like you said, enjoy the process. That's a hard thing to do, but it really is about the process of working out over time and getting better and like, I started YouTube, with iPhones, you know, and now I've got a huge production studio and nice cameras, and I understand lighting and audio. And I only did that through hard work of like, learning all of those things on my own. And at times, it was hard, and I screwed up. All of a sudden, it's like, well, this is pretty good years and years later, and it was just from doing it.


Jacques Hopkins  1:28:11

Well said. Alright, Mike Greenfield from ProHomeCooks.com. Everybody go check that out. It's an awesome, awesome website by the way. I didn't even get a chance to compliment you on that or ask questions about that.


Mike Greenfield  1:28:22

Thank you.


Jacques Hopkins  1:28:22

But at the very least everybody go check out the website and see how he’s structuring things, or if you're like me, and you want to consume more of this content, then check it ou,t as well, ProHomeCooks.com. Mike, it's been a pleasure. Thanks so much.


Mike Greenfield  1:28:35

Thank you.


Jacques Hopkins  1:28:38

Alright, that is the end of the conversation with Mike. So now, come on back, Dr.K.


David Krohse  1:28:44

Thank you.


Jacques Hopkins  1:28:44

So, this is fun, because you get to offer your perspective as somebody who's not me, right? You're kind of,  as we do the backside of the conversation, you're kind of the voice of the audience at this point. It's like, okay, we just heard the conversation, tell me what you think about it, and then as the person I was talking to Mike, I'll tell you what I think about that as well. So, if somebody is new listening, that's kind of what we're doing here. So, David, overall thoughts and then start giving me your key takeaways.


David Krohse  1:29:15

Yeah, well, I mean, Mike Greenfield just seems like the nicest, most genuine guy. Loved listening to you two chat. The big takeaway is that no one gets a pass on the marketing. I mean, Mike Greenfield has millions of followers. Again, he's validated with a freaking MTV show. He's super likable. And it's like if anyone can just send people to a sales page and sell a course - it's him. And yet, I mean, you heard him say it. It didn't work. That was a dismal failure. So, no one gets a pass on the marketing. And, yeah, I mean, that's why this podcast and the strategies you teach, it's like, it's invaluable for anybody. Even if you've got millions of followers.


Jacques Hopkins  1:29:59

Well said, man. Have you checked out his YouTube channel, by the way?


David Krohse  1:30:02

A little bit.


Jacques Hopkins  1:30:03

It's really cool. And I love cooking, we've talked about that. I love cooking so I was fascinated. I mean, I watched a 20-minute video on him talking about salad and I was just dialed in the whole time, the way he presents everything and does everything. The production value is awesome. But to your point, like I love that - nobody gets a pass in the marketing. Which is true like, it didn't go so well for him at first, but he had to lean into that and figure things out. Maybe he didn't have the right strategic partner at first. But, man, I love that. I love that. What else?


David Krohse  1:30:38

Well, so that, just this concept of building assets. I know that one of your past guests said he didn't call his courses and his books and everything, just these like products. He said, these are assets. And I felt like Mike Greenfield, that Sourdough Course he built it three years before, and it didn't take off right away, but that was an asset, just waiting to really start to monetize at a high level. Then, creating the Kombucha Course is another asset. If the individual courses don't sell technically, he could combine those into like, he could add a course on kimchi and have a collection of courses that are all about cultured products. But, every asset is one more thing that you can ultimately start to monetize. But I mean, especially I think this was super valuable for people that have these larger audiences already. These takeaways that a video to a sales page won't work, you have to have a funnel, you have to master the email marketing. And one thing, if you have somebody if we have somebody out there listening, that's like, another person that's similar to Mike, you know, has millions of followers on YouTube, I would say they should reach out to Jacques and say, you know, "Hey, like, I'm ready to build a course, can we do the coaching?" You know, whether you'd encourage that or not, Jacques, is up to you. But it's like, let's say that Kylie Jenner is out there and she's ready to make her first course on like, actually applying makeup, let's have Jacques coach her, record those calls, and let's put it into another course in your portfolio, Jacques. I'm still a little disgruntled that you didn't record the coaching calls with Jonathan Mendonsa from ChoosFI. I mean, that's a big thing.


Jacques Hopkins  1:32:21

Well, you know, David, I haven't told you this, but I've got another arrangement like that coming up. Maybe I can record those, but I'm not, I don't really do any, like, one-on-one coaching anymore... comes to me is like, "Hey, I'll give you, you know, thousands of dollars, you just coach me." Eh, that's not really something that interests me much anymore, but I'm just still trying to grow my brand, and do certain things. And so, Jonathan is a friend, so I was happy to help him out, but he also had me on his podcast. That wasn't the arrangement but being able to go on ChooseFI was really good exposure. So, I've been approached within the past week by another podcast host of a very, very, very, big podcast. And basically, it's like, "Hey, come on the podcast, in exchange for giving me some coaching." He doesn't have a course yet. He's got a huge audience. He's looking at making his first course. Wants to do it right. And would love to have me be his like, mentor for a month or so as he goes through the process. I was like, "Yeah, let's do it."


David Krohse  1:33:29

So, you're going to coach Joe Rogan?


Jacques Hopkins  1:33:34

Oh, man. No comment. We'll see.


David Krohse  1:33:40

Now I'm really curious.


Jacques Hopkins  1:33:41

I didn't say the number one podcast in the world. I just said a big podcaster. Maybe I should...


David Krohse  1:33:48

No, but I am super excited to learn who this is, and yeah, I would love to listen in on you taking somebody that has the audience and take them through this specific steps.


Jacques Hopkins  1:33:58

You know, thanks for that reminder. I actually just spoke to this person yesterday. And so, maybe I should make it one of the kind of stipulations of our deal, is to be able to record these sessions, and to bring it back to what we're talking about, that would be an awesome asset for me and my brand. So, appreciate the reminder there.


David Krohse  1:34:15

Definitely. Um, so you and Mike talked a little bit about just YouTube and a little bit about that making money from ads versus making money from the sponsor deals. You didn't say that you are actually getting little paychecks from YouTube. So, like, what would those amount to just out of curiosity with the current number of views that you get?


Jacques Hopkins  1:34:34

Oh, I get about $1,000 a month from YouTube.


David Krohse  1:34:37

No way.


Jacques Hopkins  1:34:38

Yeah, yeah, about $1000, almost 80,000 subscribers. I'm not sure how many views I get per month, but yeah, about $1,000 a month from YouTube gets direct deposited...

David Kroshe  1:34:50


Jacques Hopkins  1:34:50

...into my bank account. But you got to think like, if I had 10x the subscribers, right? if I had a million subscribers, and if it worked this way, where it was linear then, let's say I got $10,000 a month from advertisers, that's pretty good. Also, a million YouTube subscribers is very rare and difficult, right? So, if you're a YouTuber, you have a million subscribers, let's just, these numbers are probably not accurate, but let's say hypothetically you bring in $10,000 a month, you could be bringing in at least $100,000 a month from courses, or your own digital products, if you do it the right way. So, I've got the ads turned on, but it's certainly not the main revenue source of my business.


David Krohse  1:35:34

That's still pretty fascinating, though. I thought the highest you were going to say was $200 because I have this conception that the payment plan from YouTube was just really low, but not that $1,000 is enough to live on alone, obviously, but...


David Krohse  1:35:48

The other thing that in that brief conversation, he did say that let's say theoretically, we wanted to get a hold of somebody at the level of celebrity of Mike, he said, the best way to get a hold of a celebrity was Instagram. And so, I don't know if everybody would realize this, but when you go into somebody's Instagram profile, even if it's somebody really famous, there's an actual message button, but there is actually email the person, as well. And so, all these celebrities, that you might think, "Oh, man, there'd be no way to get their email." Most of them still have that email to contact them in the in the Instagram profile.


Jacques Hopkins  1:36:23

Well, and whether they're actually checking it or if they have somebody else that manages it for them is a different story, but it also can be a numbers game, as well, right? We reach out to far more people to come on this podcast than actually ever even reply. Right? That's why we reach out to maybe three to five people per week. And if one to two respond or book in, that's kind of what we're going for. So, unless, if we just did like, once a week, we might have never come across a Mike Greenfield. And people far, you know, lesser known than him will not respond whether it goes to their spam, or they're just not interested. I don't know. But the majority of our outreach never gets responded to. And that's fine, we understand that. But when guys like Mike Greenfield reply, are excited to come on, and look, we have a follow up like conversation scheduled. Like, we just, we really enjoyed getting to know each other, and we feel like we each have value to offer the other person. So, it's an ongoing relationship now. And if I never sent that first email, then it would never have happened.


David Krohse  1:37:35

That's awesome. Alright. So, Saturday night, Val and I watched a show on Netflix. Want to guess what show?


Jacques Hopkins  1:37:41

On Netflix. Social Dilemma?


David Krohse  1:37:44

Social Dilemma. Watched it. So, here's one of my key takeaways: there's a little bit of irony that you now want to create this community that's really sticky that has people coming back, you're planning it out to like, try to just like digging their dopamine receptors just like repeatedly, so they come back every day, and just feel so much joy. Doesn't that make you a little bit like Mark Zuckerberg?


Jacques Hopkins  1:38:11



David Krohse  1:38:13



Jacques Hopkins  1:38:14

Yeah, but the goal with Facebook is to get you to stay on Facebook as long as possible, essentially, because their model is advertising. So, the longer you stay on there, the more they can advertise to you, and the more money they make. Same with YouTube, same with Instagram. So, all of these platforms are designed to be as addictive as possible, right? For mine, I'm not going for addiction. I'm going for completion and experience and transformation. Right? I'm not necessarily trying to keep you on the platform as long as possible. I'm trying to teach you as much as possible. And obviously, I'm biased. I'm just kind of working this out of my head right now, but does that make sense? Is that fair? Are you legitimately asking me this?


David Krohse  1:38:56

Um, no, it's, I mean, I completely understand it. And obviously, yeah, you just want people... but you really do want people to check out Piano In 21 Days Community like every single day, you want it to become a part of their routine and bring them as much joy as possible. So, I mean, there is some similarity there. But mainly, I'm teasing you on that.


Jacques Hopkins  1:39:17

Yeah. Well, it's a matter of choice as well, right. And I think Gina said this on the episode where I interviewed her about Mighty Networks was that she specifically said, like, when you have your own community, you can be your own Mark Zuckerberg, right? And that's what I'm going for is I don't want to be in the pockets of other companies. I want to have my own thing and people can choose to use it or not. But I'm not at the liberty of other people's companies that way.


David Krohse  1:39:43

Sure. So, I did want to share just a little bit of actual hopefully helpful advice. As you're going to try to move your community over there because the other key takeaway of this, of watching Social Dilemma is that you kind of have an uphill battle to get people to come over to yours and enjoy it at the level of Facebook. And kind of my viewpoint comes from somebody who, I'm a member of this community and they tried to move off of Facebook, and they got so much backlash and so much frustration from their members that after about a month, they move back to Facebook. So, I mean, you do have this uphill battle. So, I was thinking like, what could you do to try to make this transition as successful as possible? The first thing is just to recognize that your current most active Facebook users, if you don't address it up front are most likely to become your most vocal critics. That definitely happened. The people that were most active in the Facebook group, were the ones that started whining and complaining when they moved it over to a service called Honeycomb. And so, you'd have an option to personally reach out to those top members, the people that are most interacting and say, "Hey, I appreciate all you do to make this community great. I just want to ask for your help to make the new community fantastic, as well. And that could help. Other than that, I mean, it seems like the biggest challenge is going to be to get all those people to actually download the app and get them to log in. So just really having this mindset that you need to build curiosity about what's going on in the new app, in the new community. So that could be giving away weekly prizes, surprises, debuting that new challenge in the new group. And then like I said, before, emails with the subject "Meet," and then somebody's name and say, "Meet, Susie," and then you to meet Susie and see her play, you have to click into the new app, download the new app, I think those things would be huge. The only other tip would just be to have a video tour with the quick tips to customize the experience because people interact with these apps in their own ways. So, figuring out what's going to let them make it right for them would be helpful.


Jacques Hopkins  1:41:52

Yeah, love it, we're still in the middle of that process of starting to move people over and get that initial feedback, but everything you said spoke to me, especially, you know, some of the biggest like, influencers almost inside of my current Facebook group that are regularly posting, regularly helping people out to take a proactive approach. I mean like, "Look, hey, I appreciate you so much for what you're doing for the community here. I would love it if you could help me do the same type of stuff over in the new community and the new app," and so on and just kind of get ahead of that and get their buy-in at the start rather than have them just be one of the thousands of people that need to be moved over.


David Krohse  1:42:32

Well, yes. And again, those people in the case of this failed, failed experiment of moving off of Facebook, that group of people were the most vocal critics. And so, I think that that kind of messaging ahead of time, you're heading that off.


Jacques Hopkins  1:42:45

I think one of the things I have going for me versus your experience where you're in a community that moved off of Facebook, and then it didn't go well and had to come back is that it was very, very much just a community, right? Honeycomb doesn't have any course features. That's one of the things I looked into. But it's a community platform like Circle is and like some others out there. Whereas for me, one of the main incentives for them to create this new account to move over to this new platform is that's where the course will live. And just the community being there, as well, is just a bonus, and I'm not going to just immediately remove the Facebook group, either. This is all my hope. And I'll continue to keep you and the listeners updated as we go through this process.


David Krohse  1:43:25

That sounds good. So, one more thing in the subject of social media. So, I happen to log in and start using Twitter a little bit more. Specifically, I have a little man crush on the guys that do Robinhood Snacks Daily Podcast. So that's the main spot they interact. And then the other thing is there's this really interesting course creator that I'd like to have on the podcast. His name is Paul The Trombonist, and he teaches creatives how to monetize their specific skills like playing trombone. And I thought maybe I could reach out to him on Twitter. So, I got on Twitter. And I was like, well, who else am I supposed to be following? I searched your name, and I found some old profile of yours.


Jacques Hopkins  1:44:08

Oh no.


David Krohse  1:44:08

And, yes, I saw Jacques, specifically, I scroll down, and I see where you're promoting a past podcast.


Jacques Hopkins  1:44:18

Uh oh.


David Krohse  1:44:19

Inspiring... wait... interviews with inspiring musicians. So, I mean, you don't have to tell me the full story of the podcast right now, but I was thinking, let's say sometime here in 2021, you have a week where you don't have any content, you're going on a vacation, I think that you should actually put on one of your old interviews with inspiring musicians as the podcast that episode because it would give us a great framework. How long ago were you doing that podcast? Tell me more a little about that.


Jacques Hopkins  1:44:50

Man, you're... you just always keep me on my toes, man. I forgot about that from way back then. I need to find that Twitter profile and get rid of it. Yeah so, I started Piano In 21 Days in 2013. It was not an instant success; I was still working my full-time job. And one of the marketing channels at the time, I think it was 2014 that I wanted to explore, podcast was really exploding back then, I was like, "Huh, I wonder if I could do some sort of music related podcast that sits as kind of top-of-funnel into my piano course." At the time, really, all of the traffic that I had coming in was my YouTube channel. And so, I created this podcast where I just interviewed musicians. It's a very original name -  Interviews With Inspiring Musicians. And that was my first attempt at creating a podcast, I think we made it through nine episodes. And it was very difficult to find, or to get people to want to come on. It was just me, there was nobody else on my team. So, I had to do the research, the outreach, and I just got a lot of no’s and no responses. Plus, it just wasn't... to have a podcast, it wasn't what I was most passionate about, like interviewing musicians. Like, I'm way more into interviewing course creators, obviously. This podcast, we're now on episode 162, it's almost four years old now, and that one only lasted nine episodes.


Jacques Hopkins  1:46:15

The only reason to ever go back and listen to that is just to see how green I was and how bad I was at interviewing people. Not that I'm like world class at it today, but it's all about getting better each day. And I hope that I'm better at interviewing people today than I was back in 2014. And no, I'm not going to play an episode of that for this audience.


David Krohse  1:46:42

How about put one on video, and they could watch it, and we could mention it? Because I think it actually... it would be very fascinating. I mean, the biggest thing is, it's a journey, like your first episode of this podcast with you and Nate, again, it had crummy sound quality. You've matured, you've become a better person since then, but I mean, it's nice to have those frame of reference things.


Jacques Hopkins  1:47:08

Yeah, and look like the first few videos on my YouTube channel in 2013, the very first ones are now unlisted, but they're still there, and I can go back and look at them. And they're so, so bad. And I do, I want to eventually share those with people. And when new course creators or people being on camera for the first time come to me, they'll show me a video and they're like, "How bad is this?" I'm like, "Look, you got a lot of room to grow, but I promise you, this is better than my first video." Right? And so eventually, I want to make that more public. So, you can see like, let's compare Jacques in 2013 on video to Jacques on video in 2021, and it's a huge difference and it's not because I'm some amazing person, it's just because I've done it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, and get better each time. And one thing I like to live by is you always want to try to be better than yourself yesterday, and not better than Dr. K. or somebody else. I think that may actually be one of the rules in Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules for Life. Haven't thought about that book in a while, but that's one of the things I told to my Piano Bootcamp students, the eight people that I taught my curriculum live to recently, I just kept reminding them, "Hey, you don't compare yourself to you." Because there were certainly some students that did better than others. I was like, "Look, when one person does really well, like, don't compare where you are to that person. Just compare yourself to you yesterday, make sure that you're just getting better yourself. That's one of the keys.


David Krohse  1:48:48

Love it. All right. So, I didn't know that cooking was something that you viewed essentially as a hobby.


Jacques Hopkins  1:48:54

Mm hmm.


David Krohse  1:48:54

And so, here's the question. Let's say that we do a course creator meetup someday, theoretically down at Jason Dion's place in Puerto Rico. We have a potluck. What is your dish you're bringing to the potluck?


Jacques Hopkins  1:49:08

Okay, so potluck is different than if I were responsible for the main dish. So, potluck is hard because, you know, down here in Cajun country, we like to make big ol' pots of something. Right? And that's what I'm best at. So, if I were in charge of like, the main dish, then I would make a big old jambalaya or big gumbo. One of the two. If it's potluck, maybe a smaller one.


David Krohse  1:49:38

A smaller batch of jambalaya?


Jacques Hopkins  1:49:39



David Krohse  1:49:40

Very nice. Yeah, I would say my signature one would be spring rolls. So, have you ever made spring rolls at home?


Jacques Hopkins  1:49:46

No, I've not made them, but I do enjoy eating them.


David Krohse  1:49:49

It is a fun process. There's this point where you like, it's just an experience. And so, you put the rice paper into this water, let it get soft and then you get to put whatever individually want in them. And it's just a fun process.


Jacques Hopkins  1:50:03

Very cool.


David Krohse  1:50:04

So, you shared that, you now have a full-time transcriptionist. And I was like, what? How can that possibly make sense to have a full-time person doing transcription, rather than like an hourly contractor? So, explain how that works and makes sense.


Jacques Hopkins  1:50:20

Yeah, so I think transcriptions are going to be more and more important. And we are releasing a lot of new courses right now. So, we have a lot of course content that needs transcriptions. These podcasts episodes need transcriptions. Plus, once we roll out all these new courses, we're going to get one of our initiatives is to get more dialed in on our YouTube process, both on the Piano In 21 Days YouTube channel, and The Online Course Guy YouTube channels. We have a lot of content right now and into the future that needs transcription. And I can take files and run them through rev.com, and it's a phenomenal service, it works really well, but they recently went from $1 to a minute to $1.25 per minute. And that really adds up. These podcast episodes are getting up to like two hours apiece. So that's $150 per podcast episode, and $150 times four episodes a month, that's $600, just in rev just for the podcast. Right? And typically, you can find full time, very talented people in the Philippines for under $1,000 per month. So, we're actually saving money by having a full-time person versus using rev.com.


David Krohse  1:51:39

I guess the thing that I don't understand is why wouldn't you just still get an hourly person still based out of the Philippines? Why the full-time?


Jacques Hopkins  1:51:48

Because then they're dedicated. Right?


David Krohse  1:51:50



Jacques Hopkins  1:51:51

Your question is unrelated to transcription. It goes just in general part-time versus full-time, which we've had that conversation on the podcast before, but I just felt like we had enough, at least in the short-term for somebody full-time. And the idea too, is that he won't just do transcription, either right? He can do some VA tasks and we'll see what other skill sets he has, as well. He's been very impressive, so far. Shout out to Marben, what's going on? He's listening to this because he's got to transcribe it.


David Krohse  1:52:21



Jacques Hopkins  1:52:22

And he's doing a great job so far and we'll see where he ends up fitting exactly within the company. It's possible a year from now he's not doing any transcription. I doubt it. He seems to enjoy it. But it kind of goes back to that idea that I've shared many times from Good to Great by Jim Collins, is you want to get the right people on the bus, and then figure out where the bus is going. And so, we found somebody who seemed to be awesome. He's doing a great job. so far. He's on the bus. And we don't know exactly where that bus is going. But he's on it.


David Krohse  1:52:54

Alright, awesome. Okay, so there was a point where Mike shared just the size of his email list and just how many people were on there, and I think that you, you at one point, said that the listeners were probably yelling at their phones, and I felt that emotion a little bit like, "Oh, my gosh, like, does he have this one thing, like, in place in these emails?" And specifically, for me, that was like, "Oh, my gosh, like, does he have a deadline working in his products?" And you started heading that direction and then there was a point where Mike was a little bit more like, "Hey, you know, I'd like to know a little bit more about how you manage a family and a busy course business.”


Jacques Hopkins  1:53:36



David Krohse  1:53:36

But my question for you is, did you actually go through his funnel and see if there's a deadline, the way that you would recommend it in there? And do you have one specific piece of advice for Mike?


Jacques Hopkins  1:53:48

There is some kind of deadline because his ads have been following me and they keep saying like, Sourdough U is closing. I don't think he's using something like Deadline Funnel, but he has some sort of funnel with some sort of deadline and what it is I'm not exactly sure. I think it's a price increase, because he advertises his course, on his site, I think it's like $197, but for a certain number of days, you can get it for $147, something like that. But how big did he say his email list was 300,000? Something like that.


David Krohse  1:54:20

Pretty much.


Jacques Hopkins  1:54:21

Pretty big. And that really caught me off guard because he was talking about how late in the game he started with the email list. So, I was expecting it to be smaller based on that piece of information. When he said 300,000 I was like, "Oh, my goodness." And so, I started, I mean, everybody can improve. I certainly don't have my business dialed into perfection or anything. I mean, we talked about that book From 6 to 7 Figures, the beginning of this episode, there's plenty of different things we could be doing, but I think that there's plenty of things Mike could be doing differently or in addition to what he's doing to monetize his audience even more, serve them even more. Right? But he's also doing an awesome job with what he's doing, as well. But it's just, some of the numbers are staggering: 2.2 million subscribers, 300,000-person email list. Mike, if you're listening to this, you're crushing it, man. Keep going. It's awesome. But there's certainly is probably room for improvement on the funnel end, I would say.


Jacques Hopkins  1:55:16

Definitely. But have you checked out his website? His website is amazing.


David Krohse  1:55:20

Well, I did because I'm getting the same... Facebook and Instagram ads are following me around the last couple days. And yes, they have that kind of a deadline on that, that I get a discount for the next three days that currently I think it's saying.


Jacques Hopkins  1:55:34



David Krohse  1:55:35

So yeah. I looked at it recently.


Jacques Hopkins  1:55:36

So, we're coming to the end here shortly and certainly there'll be calls to action, but just if you want some website inspiration, everyone listening ProHomeCooks.com, really cool, kind of different than a lot of websites, it's kind of all on one page for the most part, but it's just I love the design the layout, really cool. And of course, check out his YouTube channel as well. It's called Pro Home Cooks on YouTube.


David Krohse  1:56:01

So, the last thing is just, obviously, I'm not a dad. I'm a dog dad, love my dog, Sage. But I enjoyed the discussion about just managing just life in general, children, and a course business. And your takeaway, if I had to summarize it, is enjoy the stages. Enjoy the stage that your kids are in. You know, don't say, I can't wait until they stop asking why. I mean, there's going to be a day they don't ask why and so enjoy that stage where they want information from you.


David Krohse  1:56:32

As far as the course business, you have an amazing interview coming up, like in the next couple of weeks, and I was so excited about this, I had to go and listen to it ahead of time. And that interview just says more than anything, no matter what stage you're in in this online course business, whether you're grinding, whether you're getting your first bit of success, that first sale, maybe you're overcoming an obstacle right now, or you've had this huge success, and now you're kind of at this plateau, very successful. Just try to enjoy that stage that you're in. And yeah, that'll come up in the interview in a couple weeks.


Jacques Hopkins  1:57:10

Yeah, and I don't mind sharing who it is. It's Phil Ebiner. And in two weeks we'll have that episode. Somebody I've been trying to get on the podcast for a long time. He's got over 100 courses. A lot of people are going to be familiar with him. Very, very big on Udemy he's got his own platform as well. So, you listened to that conversation already. I know you were excited to and yeah, he didn't disappoint.


David Krohse  1:57:30

Yeah. Awesome.


Jacques Hopkins  1:57:31

To your point about the kids, too, and like, the enjoying the stage is like, one thing we do right now that my wife's like, you're going to miss when they don't ask for that. Like, when it's time for bed like, this is so random and silly, but my kids like me to carry them upside down to put them in their bed.


David Krohse  1:57:48

Oh, funny.


Jacques Hopkins  1:57:49

I'll grab them by their two feet and just walk down the hall and then throw him in bed. And they just will not go get in bed unless I do that for them. And it's adorable and I'm absolutely going to miss the day when they don't ask for that anymore.


David Krohse  1:58:06

Have you read this book? It's like I'll Love You for Always, about the mom that like...


Jacques Hopkins  1:58:10



David Krohse  1:58:11

...rocks her. Have you read that book?


Jacques Hopkins  1:58:12

Yeah, the kid, the children's book. Yeah.


David Krohse  1:58:15

A children's book where eventually like, the grandma like, sneaks into her adult son's like, dorm room and like, rocks him to bed.


Jacques Hopkins  1:58:23

I have never read that book without crying.


David Krohse  1:58:27

Always. They read that at Mother's Day at my parents' church and yeah, it's just there isn't a dry eye in the place. What is it actually called?


Jacques Hopkins  1:58:33

It's called I think just Love You Forever.


David Krohse  1:58:36

Love You Forever.


Jacques Hopkins  1:58:37

And it's just like, yeah, the mom just has this thing that she says to the baby, and then to the toddler, to the teenager, and so on. And then eventually it switches and the mom's very old and then he said, I'm like getting emotional now thinking about it. Alright, we got to move forward. But yeah, absolutely read that many times.


David Krohse  1:58:57

Alright, so the last thing, it's been a while since you've asked anybody to fill out a podcast review, so for the listeners out there, I mean Jacques puts a lot of time into this, and just encourage you to take a minute and fill out a podcast review. Appreciate all the effort you put into helping people have success with courses, Jacques.


Jacques Hopkins  1:59:15

Awesome. I appreciate that. Yeah, that is always appreciated. Any reviews on all the platforms. Some of you... I don't think you can leave reviews on Spotify, I want to say but Apple Podcasts you can, Google Podcasts you can, so if you enjoy the free podcast episodes each week, then definitely leave us a review if you don't mind. Appreciate you dropping that. So, is that a wrap on your kind of takeaways here, David?


David Krohse  1:59:37



Jacques Hopkins  1:59:37

So yeah, once again a fun conversation. Appreciate Mike Greenfield for joining me for this one. Dr. K., thanks for joining me. All the links and show notes, you can find at oc.show/162. Thank you everyone out there for listening to another episode. Remember to check out ProHomeCooks.com. Also, Mike's YouTube channel. Just go to YouTube and search up Pro Home Cooks. And then, I mentioned the links and show notes oc.show/162. And then if you want to find out about my programs, if you think there's ways I might be able to help you more on your mission, make sure to head on to the OnlineCourseGuy.com.


Jacques Hopkins  2:00:18

That's going to do it for this episode, number 162. Until next time, get out there and make some next level courses that have transformation and not just information. Bye, everyone.