“Now that I’m focusing on less, we’re seeing better results… Focus down on what’s really working.”
– Paul Lipsky
It was very cool to hear how Paul’s been doing with his course and recent changes. Make sure you check out the other episodes we mention during today’s interview!
In This Episode, We Talked About:
- (1:49) David’s funnel update
- (3:00) What NOT to do to go viral on YouTube and the importance of an “advisory board”
- (9:35) Some updates on my course during social distancing
- (11:37) Switching to 4K video
- (13:10) The Win of the Week and our thoughts
- (16:38) Recalling my past interview with Paul Lipsky and his story
- (18:03) Life changes since I last spoke with Paul
- (19:33) Benefits and challenges of living in a van
- (21:45) Recapping how Paul’s online business and course works
- (22:50) Thoughts on updating content in different niches
- (25:08) Tools Paul loves and is trying out
- (27:51) YouTube traffic and lessons learned about reducing regular posting
- (30:25) Thoughts on live streaming videos
- (32:11) Changes to Paul’s funnel setup with webinars
- (35:15) Communicating about pre-recorded webinar content
- (37:19) Our shared frustrations with EverWebinar
- (39:35) New webinar setups and tricks to make the viewing experience better
- (42:17) Split-testing sales pages
- (43:08) Paul’s advice for new and aspiring course creators
- (45:36) Where to find Paul online
- (46:24) David and I discuss ClickFunnels and course editing
- (48:21) Taking inspiration from Paul’s journey
- (49:55) Thoughts on social proof apps
- (52:38) Webinar changes and the reasoning behind certain tweaks
- (55:50) Wrapping up
Thanks for listening and learning along with us today. Stay tuned for another great episode coming soon!
Jacques Hopkins: This episode is brought to you by deadline funnel. Deadline funnel is one of my favorite tools, for course creators because it does authentic deadlines so well and helps you have an amazing evergreen funnel. You can get a double free trial just for my audience instead of the 14 day free trial that you would get just from going to deadline funnel.
Calm for my audience. You can get a 28 day free trial by going to deadline funnel.com/o C G which stands for online course guy. Now on to episode one 32 Paul Lipski returns to talk webinars. Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course, and they're making a living doing.
But not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way, and I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses. Hi, I'm Chuck Hopkins, and this is the online course show.
And off we go. Welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. This is the online course show. I'm your host Shaw Hopkins, and here with me as our cohost David, cozy.
David Krohse: Hey, what's up?
Jacques Hopkins: And we're excited to dive into all things online courses with you today. David Crosy, welcome to episode one 32
David Krohse: Thank you.
Jacques Hopkins: This is going to be our classic interview episode. We've got a, actually a repeat guest. Paul Lipski came back. It's been a couple years, a year and a half since I spoke to him on the podcast. Love his story. Always very insightful. He's very, he's very engaging in the, in the Facebook group as well. He's always got phenomenal insights and so I'm excited about that conversation, but before we get into that, let's chat a little bit. What's been going on with you, David.
David Krohse: Oh, not a whole lot. I mean, I've got my a deadline funnel up and running and I, I usually try to have some fun just with every aspect of building an online course. So without running, I set up a notification and I used to do a lot of fishing. So anytime somebody enters my deadline funnel, the message that comes and comes through as a notification.
Currently it says your bobbers is underwater and it's just a fun visualization that you know, somebody, somebody's interested, and then not just to visualize them going through this. Experience over the next few days. So I don't know. Did you ever do any fishing in the past or currently?
Jacques Hopkins: No, not. Not a big, not a big fisherman. I love sports, but I'm not, you know, the hunting and the fishing, the outdoors, sports type, that type, things like that. Never really got into it. I'm more of a, you know, football, baseball, basketball, even golf type of person. So you mentioned notifications though. Like, man, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty anti notifications in almost anything besides like a text message or a phone call. You remember that book make time we went through, you know, several episodes ago. You're not supposed to have notifications. David, how's your make time stuff going?
David Krohse: Oh man, I gotta be honest. Not too well, I mean, behavior change, behavior change is hard. I was actually thinking like, I have a funny story about an actual successful behavior change. I'll go ahead and share it. I actually consider not sharing it because it's pretty embarrassing, but it does have like some instructive value or just some value. A couple of things that I was reflecting on it as a course creator, kind of the question, what would you do to get a video to go viral on YouTube?
Because it's easy to say. I know even in this interview with Paul Lipski, you say like put the content out on YouTube, but I mean, it's hard to get YouTube algorithm to actually show it, especially if you're entering a crowded market. And then also just the value of what I'd call an advisory board, which could be your wife or a family member, but somebody, if you come up with a harebrained scheme that is willing to tell you, like, Hey, that's a bad idea.
But essentially like, and this is a little bit embarrassing just because it's in congruent with being healthy, but. Back in probably 2010 I got addicted to monster energy. I don't know. Do you, have you ever done the energy drinks at all?
Jacques Hopkins: No. No. Well, I do. I do nature's energy drink, David. I am a huge coffee fan, as you know, and that's, that's my energy drink of choice. Black coffee, black iced coffee, preferably.
David Krohse: Yeah. Well, most people, most people feel like that's a lot healthier. But yeah. So I started drinking monster and I just enjoyed this process of like stopping at a gas station and buy in like an absolutely zero or a sunrise. And it just became. A daily thing that I was like, man, I hope I don't see a patient in there because for those that are listening for the first time, I'm a chiropractor and I talk about health and I would try to quit, but I'd go a day or two without one, and then I'd like, I'd have this rebound.
I'd go and get two in one day, and I'm just like, man, this is bad. And I, I talked to my wife about it. I'm like, man, I'm really, this habit is annoying. I tried to quit, but I just, I just enjoy it. I enjoy buying it. I enjoyed drinking. It. So anyways, I was out for this long bike ride and thinking about wanting to quit drinking monster, and I thought about an aversion reaction. Are you fairly familiar with, Oh, shoot. Can you hear me?
Jacques Hopkins: No, no. Yeah, I got you loud and clear, man.
David Krohse: Okay. It said my internet was down for a second.
Jacques Hopkins: No, I got you. You say, are you familiar with that? And we'll go.
David Krohse: So are you familiar with the term aversion reaction?
Jacques Hopkins: I don't think so. It doesn't ring a bell.
David Krohse: Okay. Well the classic one is like, let's say that when you're, when your daughters are teenagers, you catch 'em like smoking cigarettes. Then like old school parents would like make the kid like sit down and smoke a pack of cigarettes until they throw up. And the theory, the theory would be that once you throw up as a result of doing something like.
If you don't want to do that again, your brain is like, that's poison to you. And so I actually had one of these aversion reactions when I was like 19 so I was over at a friend's house and we were going to get, there was like eight inches of snow coming and we got this wild idea to drink half a bottle of tequila and go cross country skiing.
Don't really remember how the night ended, but the next morning it was one of the worst mornings of my life. And for years I couldn't even touch her stand. The smell of tequila. So anyways, I'm out on this bike ride and I was like, maybe I could stop drinking monster energy through an aversion reaction. And I actually stopped on this trail.
Jacques Hopkins: And I really scared about what this is about.
David Krohse: So I researched, like make yourself throw up or something. And there is this stuff called Epic hack syrup, and essentially it has a violent reaction. And so I'm sitting there like brainstorming. I'm like, this sounds like it would be pretty easy.
Like, so essentially take the Epic hack, slam a monster, and let the fireworks begin. And I'm like, this would really let me, you know, stop at monster energy, protect potentially. And then at the time, I had not started my course, my online course journey, but I was starting this process of trying to make YouTube videos.
And my only goal was that by having a popular YouTube video. That then had a link to my compass chiropractic website that if the video was popular, I thought, Oh, at some level, that should help my search engine optimization. And so I started to think like, Hey, I could make this video that potentially would get really popular and have this powerful link, you know, a high quality link back to compass chiropractic.
And. And I'm like, this would be great. This would be three birds with one stone, kick the habit of monster, help a bunch of other addicts around the world get rid of their, their energy drink or whatever they have a problem with, and then create this popular video. So I remember I was biking back toward town to meet my wife for a walk, and I was just, I was totally like planning it all out.
And I was thinking, this is like Tim Ferriss meets Johnny Knoxville, you know. You know, essentially body hacking, health hacking, and I was like, this is going to be great. I met my wife for a walk and I started to tell her this, this plan, and I'm excited about it. I'm like, this is going to be great. I'm going to quit monster.
I'm going to have this great popular video and help a bunch of people, and we were walking across this bridge and this beautiful Lake. I remember my wife just stopped and looked at me. And the look she gave me was like, I was like just the lowest of the low leech or a centipede or a dog turd that she stepped on and she was just like, David.
She's like, if you are willing to like cause yourself to throw up to drink monster, she's like, maybe to stop drinking monster. Maybe you should just stop. And I remember I just stood there like I'd been punched in the stomach and I was like. Yeah, but I'm like, there's more to it than just stopping. I'm like, it's, it's got, it's got these other advantages.
But interestingly, like it wasn't just for Val, but for some reason, the way that she looked at me and just thinking like I was ready to make myself throw up to quit monster. I successfully quit drinking monster. So I don't think I've had one for probably, I don't know, 24 28 months. So. Anyways, behavior change is hard, you know, back to how does it apply to course creators.
I mean, like you tell people start a YouTube channel, but it's hard to get YouTube to show your videos and sometimes you might end up thinking like, what do I need to do? And it's good to have somebody that you can, you know, if you're like me and you're a schemer at all, it might be good to have somebody to run an idea by.
Jacques Hopkins: A lot of layers to that story. David, you know, Dr. David Crosy given out health advice, don't drink monsters. Don't do what he did. You know, we have a, you know, a big LSU football fan or head coach here at oars or on who? I, you know, we've talked about several episodes ago. He's a, he's like a monster addicts, but what's interesting is he, he's actually 20 years sober from alcohol and he re, he recently hit that, but it's, you know.
So typically people with addictive personalities kind of find something else. So he's known for, you know, he doesn't drink alcohol, but he drinks like five monsters day, something like that.
David Krohse: Well, I still think that somebody could make the YouTube video. I just, it's not going to be me.
Jacques Hopkins: Probably not best for your image. Probably not super congruent with who you truly are. All right, well let's, let's just blast forward, David here, man. I'll tell you my, my online course. You know, piano in 21 days is just. It's, you know, speaking of blasting forward is, it's doing well. It's doing, it's, you know, better than it ever has. It continues to be up during this time when, when people are just staying home for the most part, trying to learn new things. So, I'm just super pumped at how well it's still doing and it's still still helping people learn piano. It's, it's a lot of fun right now.
David Krohse: Are you going to announce whether you reached or past that goal?
Jacques Hopkins: What goal?
David Krohse: The six figure in a month goal.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, man, it's, it's wild. Like the most I brought in, in fact, this is my fourth month in a row of, of the most sales, most revenue in a month. And so March, 2020 was about 65 K and just core sales, piano, course sales. And we're right at the end of April here. Got a couple of days left in April, about 121 K so.
David Krohse: Gosh, congratulations. Shock. I mean, you deserve it. You put in the work and you're really helping people. That's really neat.
Jacques Hopkins: Man. I appreciate it. And it's, it's funny to watch because I do spend most of my time on the online core sky side of things, and, and this side, you know, it doesn't bring in near as much money it brings, it brings it a good amount, you know, mostly affiliate income, sponsorships, things like that. Because as of right now, most of what I offer is free, but I do make money in other ways from this side.
But you know, the one that I haven't. Been paying as much attention to, but you know, the, the reason is because I put in so much work upfront. That's the one that's really taking off during this time. It's, it's. You know, it's really cool to see, and I'm telling you almost all of it is going to to cash reserves.
I'm just saving up cash cause who knows what things are going to look like a few months of now. But I appreciate it, man. It's, it's a lot of fun too to see not only the, you know, the financial numbers go up, but the quantity of just happy students to, you know, people, you know, they're a weekend and they're like, I love this course. It's great. So helping people learn piano.
David Krohse: It's a lot of fun. That's awesome.
Jacques Hopkins: Awesome. And another thing worth mentioning in the past week or so is I'm starting to film in forte. I think 4k is, is obviously the future. There was a time when 10 80 like HD high definition was the big thing. I remember when I was probably a teenager and the world series was coming up and.
My dad was considering getting one of these fancy, like high definition TVs and my parents were thinking about getting one of these fancy high definition, you know, new TVs. They weren't flat-screen or anything at the time. They were still pretty big and I was just like, man, how cool would it be to watch the world series.
In high definition, you know, we were used to those four by three ratio, standard definition at the time. And that's, I feel like that's kind of what's happening now with, with 4k. Things are kind of slowly moving that way. And as online course creators, we have to think about that. You know, most of the information we probably convey, most of us convey in an online course is with video.
Right? And you could be less left in the dust eventually if you stick with 10 80 you know, it's, it's, I think it's happening slowly, but. Five years from now, I'd imagine 4k is going to be the standard. So the camera that I purchased about four months ago, it's a Sony, a 6,400 does have 4k ability. And honestly, you know, that's not one of the reasons I bought it, but it's just kind of a nice feature that it had.
And I was like, huh? I could probably start just filming in 4k, but it adds some layers of complexity, you know, transferring files. They're such, so much bigger files, getting those files to my video editor and so on. But I'm starting to do that this week and excited to start putting out some four K content.
Nice. Yes. Nice. All right. You know what I think we should do next? I think we should do our win of the week. We have a, we debuted, we debuted this segment a few weeks ago. I think it's been going well, well received, and we've got another one here from Kelly Casanova who, you know, one of the things I love about this kind of niche that we're in is like, you never run out of.
Interesting. Different, you know, almost weird niches that people are in. Or now we are, might not be the best word for this particular case, but it's just something you never would have thought of. And in this case, Kelly does teaches people weaving, right? And so she had a recent win. So without further ado, let's go ahead and play this week's win of the week.
Kelly: Hi, my name is Kelly and I have an online waiving school that I've. Had for close to three years now. You can find [email protected] my big win is that recently I had a $10,000 revenue month, which was my first one ever, and that was hugely exciting for me and for my business.
Jacques Hopkins: All right, so short and sweet there from Kelly. But the big thing is she had a $10,000 month. How cool is that?
David Krohse: That's amazing. I mean that that could change her life and you know, I'd be interested to know what that did for her, if she, if she still has a full time job. But yeah, that, that could really take, let a person just have freedom and the choice to do whatever they want.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. I wish she would have shared like her why behind it because she told us that it was, it meant a lot to her that she was able to earn, you know, that five figure Mark in a month. But why? Why was it important to her? I would have loved to have heard her side of that story, and I know for me. $10,000 in a month.
That was kind of always the goal for me ever since starting my online piano course because I'd be working my full time job as an electrical engineer and I'd always have that in my, in my head, like if I can build this thing to $10,000 like how amazing would that be? First of all, and second of all, that would be, that would allow me to quit my job.
I was really scared to quit my job because I had. Built up a lot of great relationships, a really respect to my boss. I had the same boss my entire eight years that I worked there, and he was phenomenal. He's a phenomenal mentor, and I just dreaded the day of going and be like, look, I'm quitting my job.
But I figured if I could go go to them and be like, look, I built this thing and it's bringing in $10,000 a month, then it would have been so much easier. To break that news to them cause it's like, yeah, this thing over here works. And I just thought that would be a good amount of money for me and my wife to live very comfortably, have her not have to work either. And so for me, that $10,000 was always the Mark as well. And clearly it was a big deal for Kelly as well.
David Krohse: Congratulations Kelly.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. Great job, Kelly. Thanks for sharing so much. And with that, Oh, by the way, guys, if you're out there and you've got a recent win, I want to hear from you, we want to hear from you, and the way you do that is you go to the online course, guide.com/win and you just record a short audio message.
We make it super, super easy on that page for you to do that. And let's you tell us about a recent win, whether it's something like Kelly where she had a great month, or maybe you had a great launch, or maybe you made your first online course sale, or maybe having an online course. Business allowed you to do something really, really cool and make sure you share that.
Why? Like why was that thing? Why was that wind so important for you? Tell us a story. We'd love to hear about it. That is the online course, guide.com/win so I think the next thing we need to do, David, is go ahead and get into our feature content of the day, which is an interview with me and Paul Lipski. Does that sound good?
David Krohse: That sounds great. Now, do you, do you have the episode number for people to go back and listen to the first one that they want.
Jacques Hopkins: Oh goodness. It's 80 something. I mentioned it. I mentioned it in the interview with Paul, so stay tuned for that. And a couple of minutes I'll share what episode it was. It's 80 something. I think it's either 80 or 82 but Paul and I and our conversation, we're about to play. We'll reveal that for us. So yes, I've had Paul Lipski on the show before about a year and a half ago. Phenomenal story. He had built up to about a thousand students in his first eight months in business.
Yeah. And now he's up over 3000 students. He's doing as well as ever. He's living in a van loving life because of his online course business. So let's go ahead and play the full conversation with Paul Lipski right now. What's going on. Paul, welcome back to the online course show.
Paul Lipsky: Thanks man. Thanks for having me back. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me again.
Jacques Hopkins: I love your story. You know, obviously we chatted back in episode 80 and the biggest thing that jumped out at me. Back then there was a lot of things, obviously, but the biggest thing was how quickly your online course business grew, because for me, that's, that's not my story, right?
It was very slow growth over time, unfortunately more exponential, but, but certainly you could have exponential growth and still start quickly. So you guys, your first 1000 students and your very first eight months in business. I mean, it took me that long to just put together my course and launch it. So at this point now, it's probably been a year, year and a half since we last talked on the podcast, since those thousand students in the first eight months, about how many students are yet now we're a little.
Paul Lipsky: Over 3000 students now.
Jacques Hopkins: Dude. Congratulations. That's amazing. All right, so you had just, you had just quit your job as well. I'm assuming, you know, with another couple thousand students that you never went back to work. Is that fair to say? Yeah.
Paul Lipsky: So I think during the last podcast, I had quit my job, but hadn't actually left yet, if I remember right. So now I've been free for. About a year and a half. So it's been pretty, pretty amazing.
Jacques Hopkins: And you know, I follow you on Facebook and whatnot, and I see all these pictures of you and I guess your husband and a van and all these crazy places. Are you living in a van now?
Paul Lipsky: He, so while you were in New York during the last podcast, and that's where we live in New York city, and then we left there. A little bit after I, maybe like six months after I quit my job, moved down to Florida, or my husband got a job there and I was working online and we were loving it down there. And then we're like, you know what? Let's just do something even crazier. So we bought a camper van and now we live in that. It has beds, it has shower, toilet as kitchens, so it has everything. It's not like where. In a rough in it, but it's, it's pretty fun. Pretty amazing.
Jacques Hopkins: That's something that my wife and I have talked about for years and we just, it seems like it would be really cool. Is it as cool as you thought it would be and how do you run an online business from a van.
Paul Lipsky: It is as cool as I thought it would be. For sure. There are challenges, you know, it's a small space obviously, so that's like a relationship challenges, but you know, you grow into your relationship there. It's pretty cool. And also working from the road, it's has its pluses and minuses. I mean, because you know, we have wifi in the van, we have multiple hotspots at and T and Verizon.
We have these things called cell boosters, which. Pretty much his antenna on the roof of the van, which amplifies our hotspots, makes them a little stronger. But if I wasn't, like right now I'm at a family member's house, if I wasn't. Here. It'd be challenging to do like this interview and I had to go to like a Starbucks or McDonald's cause they have really good wifi. So we kind of get used to knowing what restaurants have really fast wifi. That helps a lot too.
Jacques Hopkins: So having an online course business and I guess any, any. Business that's got a lot of passive income in it allows us to do some pretty cool things, especially when you're, when you're really successful at it is just like the whole quitting your job and living in a van thing.
Would you say like that's the coolest thing, or is there something else that you could share with us that, that this, this, this type of business has really enabled you and your family to be able to do?
Paul Lipsky: I think that's the coolest thing I've ever done in my entire life. So I mean. Just, I mean, and that's, that's like my dream, right? It was something that we wanted to do. We wanted to move into his van. I know other people, they just, they just want to stay at home, right? They just want time with their family. Other people, they want to be like jet setters going around the world, you know, traveling different countries out of a backpack. So it's really like whatever your dream is, and for us, this is it, and reliving it right now. It's just been amazing.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. So for those that maybe haven't listened to that first episode that you were on or not familiar with you and what you do, why don't you kind of recap for us? You know, the type of person you help, what your topic is, what your niche is, and what your course or courses are about.
Paul Lipsky: Sure. So I teach something called eBay drop shipping. So most people have heard of eBay. It's a web, it's a marketplace where you can sell items on eBay, and we use a model called drop shipping. So what that is, is we sell products on eBay that we don't actually have in stock. So this is something else that we do from the van because we don't need a warehouse.
We don't need a garage full of items. We sell these items on eBay once they sell. Then we turn around and we take the money that the customer on eBay gave us and we use that to actually buy the item from our supplier. And that supplier ships the item directly to the customer. So we're just kind of like a middleman.
We're connecting the supplier up with the customer on eBay and on Amazon, cause I do the same thing on Amazon. So that's what I do and that's what I teach other people how to do. I have basically two flagship courses to eBay course and the Amazon course.
Jacques Hopkins: Now do you actually do that? Do you do that business still yourself or do you just focus on your courses now?
Paul Lipsky: Yep, we still do it. I think it's really important to still do it because it's changing a lot. I think, like stop me if I'm wrong about this, but I feel like something like piano, it doesn't really change too much. So like you could probably make the course once, and I think you told me you've updated it once.
Jacques Hopkins: Maybe. I actually five times. Oh five.
Paul Lipsky: Okay. So I stand corrected. All right, but did you update it because of like you wanted to make it higher quality or is there actually like. Changes to the pedagogy of teaching piano.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. So they came out with these new revolutionary pianos and they had to change everything. No. So obviously the piano hasn't changed in, in many centuries. Eh? I update my course when I get, you know, better camera equipment, but I mean, you know, we're talking on video right now. Look at this studio, right? This, I'm pretty proud of what you're looking at on my side. You know, you should compare this to my very first version of my course, for example.
So I want to always come across as good as, as, as professional as possible. Now, my neck always act professional on camera, but you know, the, the setup will, will be professional. So I get better equipment, lighting, and then I get better at teaching and being on camera as well. Right. So another problem with those first couple of versions is I was very timid and, and I didn't, I didn't know how to interact with the camera, whereas I'm pretty good at that now.
So. Oh. And then, and then the other thing is, I'm always getting feedback from my students, right? So, you know, right now, even though I've recorded a fifth times, five times, I'm pretty proud of it. But there is this one limitation in day seven of my course that really hangs people up. And so the next time I record it, like I'm gonna make sure that that's a little smoother because I've gotten that feedback, feedback from my students.
So those are the reasons that I. We'll record rerecord by course, but I do a lot of training on how to do courses too. And that is more of an ever changing and ever-changing, you know, thing to teach on kind of like yours. So I can only imagine that you've got to stick with it so that you can continually share the latest and greatest information with your students. Yeah, exactly.
Paul Lipsky: So that's why we, I mean, that's not the only reason I do it. I mean, it makes this money, so keep doing it. So.
Jacques Hopkins: Very cool. All right, so you mentioned some tools on the last episode that you were using and loving. I want to see if you're still using any of those. Is your core still on teachable?
Paul Lipsky: Yep. Still using teachable. I'm still happy with it. We were never using click funnels before. But very, very recently, I started playing around with it, as you know, and we'll see where that goes. But it's, I always like trying new things. There's a couple of limitations I've noticed that click funnels. It doesn't have the same limitations, so that's why I'm kind of exploring it.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, and I've noticed more and more people are using ClickFunnels in conjunction with a different course hosting platform, like teachable, Thinkific, Kajabi, because ClickFunnels, that's not what it does best. It doesn't do courses best. What it does best is the sales funnels, and the. You know, landing pages and order forms and all that, so they can certainly work hand in hand.
So I'll be curious to follow up with you maybe the next time you're on the podcast and see if you're still playing around with ClickFunnels. But what about ? You said you were using Bundoora to, to send the videos to thank your new students like I do. Are you still using.
Paul Lipsky: That? We, we still have it. Haven't been as consistent with it as I would like it to be. There's a period where I just completely stopped and then he picked it back up and I'm not consistent with it, but we do. I would say like every week I at least do some, I want to be more consistent. Would be more like you.
Jacques Hopkins: With it. Yeah. I logged into my dashboard the other day and I didn't even know it was recorded. Like I didn't know these stats existed. I kind of ended up in a, in a place I had never been before and, and I have sent over 3000 Bunjil rows. Yeah. It's. Over time. You know, it's, it's a lot, but I couldn't imagine sitting down and doing, trying to do 3000 at one time. But they did. They did release a new feature a couple of months ago.
So if you ever do get backed up on your Bundoora is they have this feature called roll up where you can just, you know, check everybody's box and just send one video to everybody so that you can easily get caught up. Everybody still gets a video. It's not as personal. Everybody still gets a video and then you can, you know, put, put your foot in the sand and say, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to do it for everybody going forward. What about a proof? You were using proof as a little notification for people when they, I guess bought your course. You still using that?
Paul Lipsky: We use something similar now. It's not proof. It's kind of like one of their competitors. Proof was great. It was just way too expensive.
Jacques Hopkins: Way too expensive. I agree. I'm still on proof, but I'm on there like smallest plan, but I have been, I've been doing research on alternatives lately. I would love to hear which one you ended up on.
Paul Lipsky: So we're using one called prove source an exactly. They have a weird spelling too, but if you, if you Google proof source, it does come up. It's pretty easy to set up and yeah, it's been working fine. So we just use that with zaps and. Yeah, no problems with it.
Jacques Hopkins: Very cool. All right, so your main source of traffic last time we talked was YouTube, and you had a very impressive YouTube channel. I remember at the time you had about 18,000 subscribers. I just checked this morning, you're up to 45,000 subscribers is YouTube. You're still your main source of traffic.
Paul Lipsky: Yeah, absolutely. So at that time we were doing two videos a week. One live, one pre recorded video. Last year we went up to three videos a week and now we're back down to two because we didn't notice that three actually made a difference. So I was beating myself up for awhile trying to get to three videos a week.
I was really stressed out about it. Actually, I didn't realize it at the time, and then earlier this year I evaluated it and said, you know what? It really doesn't make a difference. So we just went back down to two.
Jacques Hopkins: Dude, I love that. So you're the second person that I've talked to recently who has said basically the same thing. I, my friend David Wallimann, who I've had on the podcast a couple of times as well. He for years, did three videos a week. And eventually after like 10 years of doing that, he got overwhelmed and just kind of stopped for a few weeks. And then when he came back, he started doing two videos a week and it was like he noticed the same exact results doing two versus three and he was a lot less overwhelmed. So that's, that's very interesting that I've now heard that twice. Well,
Paul Lipsky: this is why it's important to listen to your podcast, because I didn't even think of that idea until I heard that podcast episode. And then I actually went in and looked and was like, Oh my gosh, let's try this. And then when I did, I was like, Oh my gosh, it doesn't make a difference. Doing just as well. So
Jacques Hopkins: yeah, we're, I mean, we're in this little niche here of online courses. I mean, it's, it truly is a niche. I never wanted to create just like a generic online business brand or podcasts. That's why this is the online course show. If so, if anybody out there wants to get into online courses or has an online course, I mean, that's, you're going to get little tips and insights like that.
So that's great to hear that, that, that specific example is. What caused you to realize that I'm glad you tried it and were able to share those results. So typically for people, you know, just starting out, I like to see them do at least one video a week. What do you think about, you know, one video versus two a week?
Paul Lipsky: I think that two videos a week, you know, that's what works really well for me. I think every niche is going to kind of have a sweet spot. But if you can't do two videos a week, just do one. I mean, the consistency is key. That's not a huge secret. And if the only way you can be consistent is one video a week, then do that.
And what works really well for me is I do the one video and the other one's alive video. Now I do prepare really like a lot for the PR live video. It's not just like go on there and just start. Like rambling away, like I actually have a topic usually for that week. So there's preparation that goes into it. It's a good video, but that's, that's all we do is the two videos.
Jacques Hopkins: So when you're going live, I've been doing much more live stuff lately. It's normally a Facebook. Are you going live just on your YouTube channel?
Paul Lipsky: Yeah, just on YouTube.
Jacques Hopkins: And do you actually interact you, you will, you get people to comment and ask questions and so on?
Paul Lipsky: Yeah. So they, so what happens is. During the week, people ask me questions or comments underneath my YouTube videos and it takes screenshots of them. And then during my next live video, I have a topic normally for it. So like I usually present something and then at the end of that, I'll start answering questions.
So what I'll do is I'll put up on the screen all those screenshots and answer them, or if someone's in there live, I can also put their comment on the screen with the software use, and then I'll answer it. Right. There should be like 45 minutes.
Jacques Hopkins: What software is it that you're using to be able to do that? Those overlays on the screen,
Paul Lipsky: it's called live. I think it's only for Mac.
Jacques Hopkins: So with, with I, I'm not familiar with that particular software. I've been using stream yard lately for my lives and with tools like that, they're making it super easy to broadcast to multiple platforms at the same time. So why haven't you started to broadcast to other platforms at the same time?
Paul Lipsky: Because I don't really have another platform to be honest. I have a. Private Facebook group. That's just for members of my course, but I don't have a Facebook group that's public that I might use for like I'm marketing, so to speak.
Jacques Hopkins: So let's jump into talking about webinars. I'm excited to talk to you about webinars today cause I know you've used them extensively for selling. I do as well. I'm a latch kind of changing with ever webinar and I just rolled out a new system myself to set up a little bit of context. I want to jump back first, and I remember. When I first got in contact with you, you, you actually reached out to me in reply to one of my piano email funnels, right?
And you were, you're like, this is so cool. How are you doing this particular thing with your funnel and out? And you said that you had a course yourself. And you know, I get those from time to time and they're usually not near as successful as you were. And once I found out, you know, you had. Yeah. A thousand students already and this and that.
And you were, you were, you were very successful. I saw your YouTube channel. I reached out to you to come on the podcast the first time, and. After we, we, we stopped recording that last time. I know we chatted a little bit more cause I was amazed that you were, you were so successful without much of a funnel.
Right? And so we talked about webinars. I was like, man, Paul, I can't believe you're not doing webinars, man. You gotta be doing webinars. So I think at some point between our last conversation and this conversation, you started doing webinars. Is that correct?
Paul Lipsky: Yeah, so I think at the time had mini courses, which are kind of like product launch formula mini courses, kind of, but yeah. Then I moved on to. Evergreen webinars. Yeah. Shortly after that.
Jacques Hopkins: How did, what was your process for, for even knowing how to S you've got the setup, like all the tech of the setup, but then also the content of the webinar. What was your process for those two things?
Paul Lipsky: Well, luckily I, I had done live webinars before, so I knew like the content, the slides already had. So during, like when I first launched the course, I had done all of that and I basically learned that just. Bye. I didn't know you could like learn it in the course. I just like watched a bunch of them on YouTube or went into people's funnels and watch them and that's kind of how I learned how to do it.
But then the actual, Oh my gosh, I don't know how I learned how to do it. I guess I just signed up for like every webinar and just kind of went through the steps. I honestly don't remember how I figured it out.
Jacques Hopkins: It sounds like you're, you know, the ClickFunnels community, they call them funnel hackers. Sounds like you're a big time funnel hacker, where you just go in and try to figure out, you know, people that have funnels and systems that are working already. Okay, let's figure out how, how they're doing it. So that's really cool. Did the, I'm assuming the, the webinars, the evergreen webinars outperformed your previous funnel with the mini courses.
Paul Lipsky: The doing really well. I was not doing a good job of tracking my mini course conversions. I didn't know like how to do that, but with the webinar we were getting like 5% so that that was, we were happy with that. Then just in terms of how much money we were making, it seemed to be higher, like it was higher. So.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah.
Paul Lipsky: You know, I wasn't really sure what was working cause I wasn't tracking well before, but it seemed like it was. That makes sense.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. Now where you, where you kind of pretending it was live or was it very clear that it was not alive webinar?
Paul Lipsky: So this is one of those things that like I always felt weird about. So like. We were using every webinar it had. I think it had a chat. Maybe it had definitely had the different signup times, but I made sure to never say it was live, but also didn't say it was prerecorded, if that makes sense. And just thought it was weird.
Jacques Hopkins: To me a.
Paul Lipsky: Little bit.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, I feel exactly the same way. I always made sure I didn't promote it as live, say live, but also, what was it saying. Hey to be super clear, this is prerecorded and there's so many features in software like ever webinar that convey that it's that it's probably live you like literally have a fake quantity of people attending that that moves up and down.
Like that's one of the key features in ever webinar. And I had a chat roll going just that I exported from a, from a live session that I did and it worked. You know, my converted about 5% as well. But I definitely got my fair share of people commenting, emailing me, even leaving reviews, a couple of reviews in places saying that, you know, it was a scam because saying that it was a scam because cause the webinar was not live and that I was just, you know, the whole thing was a scam. Did you get any messages like that as well? We.
Paul Lipsky: Definitely got a few things like people saying, is this live? Like, that was the most common one we received. I've actually have a VA now who handles my email. And I told her if I ever see any emails like that, I just don't want to see them. Like that's her, that's her job basically. So.
Jacques Hopkins: She hides the of the negative, the trolls and stuff from you. So we always, we would always respond with something like, cause cause I do intersperse live webinars every now and then. So I always. We would always respond as like, well, sometimes their lives, sometimes they're prerecorded. You know, we do our best to do as many live ones as possible, but sometimes it's not always possible.
And so you may have, you may have seen a prerecorded one, but I've since moved off of that system. Are you still using ever webinar? . They just went through this whole thing where they made all their users upgrade from 3.0 to 4.0 and just killed 3.0 and you had to manually recreate everything. And that was just the last straw for me.
And I've, you know, I've put out podcasts episodes already. People know that I've moved off to us far more simple system using pretty much just click funnels. Are you still on ever EverWebinar's.
Paul Lipsky: No, we're officially done as like a couple of days ago. I was so mad about that too. It made me furious because like we are business owners and it's like we're running a business.
We have all these links we don't have, we don't want to do this. We don't have time to do this. It's a tremendous burden on us. They didn't ask us if we wanted to do this. Quite frankly, even though. I know you had problems with ever webinar. I had problems with ever webinar, but personally I would have stayed with it just out of convenience.
But the fact that they made me move, I was like, you know what? Then I'm going to find something better. And. That's when I saw what you did and I funnel hacked to you to figure it out. So.
Jacques Hopkins: Outstanding. Yeah. I think my biggest, my big, I had a lot of complaints about EverWebinar's, but my biggest complaint was it seemed like once I had, once you had an evergreen webinar or set up and it was running and working, you couldn't really change anything.
Like Nate, Nate Dodson, who's been on this podcast many times. A lot of people are familiar with him. He wanted to turn off. He was sick of the fake chat, right? So he just wanted to turn it off. He turned it off and like everything broke and he emailed their support and they were like, Oh, you can't do that.
Like you got to create a whole new webinar and they and, and something, something else on my end, I wanted to change. They told me the exact same thing. So it seemed like once you were getting registrants and so on, you couldn't change anything about your webinars. You had to. Totally recreate it, which is incredibly inconvenient, but so I just left everything alone.
But then once they forced everybody to manually upgrade, now granted they probably worked very hard on this new software, and I'm sure it's amazing. I've heard good things about the new version, but once they were making you manually upgrade and then not like they only gave you like two months, it wasn't really a lot of time.
I moved over unfortunately. The system that I moved to, which is, it sounds like it's very similar to what you're on now as well. It's just a far better experience. You know, there's no pretending it's live at all. People get to watch it immediately. Did you set yours up pretty much minus.
Paul Lipsky: Yeah, so I set it up basically using like lead pages cause we use lead pages and that works. Yeah, it's been working now. I thought I was funnel hack to you really well, but then you may like a YouTube video or I forgot how maybe you posted in the group about it. You're a Facebook group for the.
Jacques Hopkins: For, what's it called? The yeah, the online course community. Thank you.
Paul Lipsky: Online course community Facebook group about how it really works. And I was like, Oh, there's all these little things in there that I didn't know that you did. Like you were saying like. Things appear based on the timestamp in the video. So people watch it at two times, feels like, Oh man, now I need that. So that's why. That's one of the reasons we signed up for click funnels, because now you sent me your template. So we're eventually gonna move.
Jacques Hopkins: Over to that. Yeah. Very cool. That's, that's one of my favorite features of, of my system is the enroll now button comes in at, at the, based on the timestamp of the video, which for my webinars about the one hour Mark, right. And click funnels does have the builtin feature where you can say, if somebody's been on this page for X number of minutes or hours.
Then bring in this button. For me, that wasn't good enough because I wanted people to have the ability to watch it. 1.5 speed, two speed. You know, once again, it's not live. Why not give people the ability to do exactly what I would do if I'm in that situation. Like I watched presentations like that at two a two XP.
That's just what I do. Cause I, you know, I have limited time and if I'm interested in the topic, I'm going to be able to get that information. You know, for example, I listened to. Our episode 80 our previous episode to prepare for this, this conversation here today, I listened to it at like two and a half speed and I got all the information.
So I want people to be able to do that. But if you do that, then they're never, and you do the, the, the traditional way of just letting ClickFunnels determine when the button comes in, they'll never actually see the button if they watch it at two X speed. So we were able to drop in some custom code that allows it to be based on the timestamp of the video, which is built into the template.
That people get when they sign up for ClickFunnels using my affiliate link. So I think you, you realize that, and then you ended up signing for signing up for ClickFunnels using my affiliate links. So you now have a my template. So yeah, there's some little things in there, man. I want to, I want to help people out, but I also got to pay the bills too.
Paul Lipsky: Yeah. So yeah, so we're pretty excited. I'm not going to move over to you right away because we just, I just went through the whole process, so in a way, a little bit, but another reason I signed up ClickFunnels is because we can split test sales pages, which I haven't found another way to really do it the way I want to do it.
A teachable has kind of teased us, said they would use, give us that function, and they have given us the option to create multiple sales pages. But not a good way to split test it, but you'd have to use like an external.
Jacques Hopkins: Sort of like link tracker.
Paul Lipsky: A software to do that. And I was like, ah, come on. Like, so that's why I'm kind of excited for it.
Jacques Hopkins: Teachable is, is most people would pay, most people's opinion would be a better course platform, but it's not even close for our sales pages and funnels and split testing and all that. So I could definitely see you, you know, in longterm sticking with teachable, but also using click funnels for things like that.
All right, Paul. Well man, this has been fun to catch up about these. What's been going on in your business the past year and a half or so? You've been doing this for, I guess over a couple of years now, over 3000 students now, knowing everything you know now, what advice do you have for those more on the beginning stages of their online course journey?
Paul Lipsky: Yeah, so one thing I wanted to kind of just point out was that in 2017 when I started 2018 when I launched my first course that whole year, it was a. A year when I was fully focused on in terms of the core side, just that one course, and during that year I grew really fast and last year, 2018 I kind of got a little bit more distracted.
I was trying all these different things. I was trying to create all these different like new products in terms of like digital products and. I didn't do as well last year as a year before. And I think the reason for that was because.
Jacques Hopkins: I was.
Paul Lipsky: Focused on so many different things. And now this year I'm focusing again on less. We're seeing better results. And the reason I want to tell that I think a good moral that is less is more sometimes. And I think we see that with the webinars that we're doing. You know, these complicated, crazy effort webinars. Sometimes that's too much. You know? And if you just simplify things, just focus down on what's really working.
That's work so much better, I've found. And it keeps you more focused. It lets your audience know more what you're about. They're not like, wait, is he this guy? Is he's an online course guy? Or is he like the guy who does lead generation? Or is he the guy who does a, you know, eBooks? I go, Oh, what is he? And I just found that focusing down, it creates clarity of message. Your con, your audience is less confused and that ultimately results in. More.
Jacques Hopkins: Sales. I could not agree more. I think it's a natural tendency that we have it once, once we start tasting success to kind of move on and create the next thing and the next thing and that next thing. When in reality, most of the time you'll find more success.
Yes. By just doubling down on that bursting that worked and make that even better, you know, raise the price of that, simplified the marketing for that, increase the ad spin on that and just focus on that one thing. It sounds like you are, you share that sentiment as well, so I appreciate that reminder very much and I wholeheartedly believe in it.
So Paul, this was awesome, man. Appreciate it so much. Let's, let's get outta here. Just remind people where they can connect with you online if they want to. Sure.
Paul Lipsky: So the best place to see what I'm all about is just gone to YouTube and search for.
Jacques Hopkins: Paul J Lipski.
Paul Lipsky: Or that's too much to remember. Just search for Paul and eBay and I'll come right up. If you search for my name, Paul Lipski and the word van life, you can watch a video about life in my van, so you can check that out as well.
Jacques Hopkins: Awesome. I'll be testing that out as well. Thanks so much, Paul. All right. That's going to do it for our conversation with Paul. Let me bring you back into the picture here. David, welcome back.
David Krohse: Thank you.
Jacques Hopkins: A lot of, a lot of cool stuff here to talk about, kind of debating where I want to start here. Let's, let's start. Let's talk about a little bit about ClickFunnels, because like I told Paul, I definitely see my fair share of people that are, that are hosting their course somewhere other than ClickFunnels, but still using ClickFunnels, and that's because click.
Of course, membership, of course, site is not what ClickFunnels does best. What it does best is funnels, is sales funnels within that are your order forms and some other things. And so I don't think it's a bad way to go to have ClickFunnels and, and all another online course platform. The only problem with that is it just adds another software and adds another expense.
So for that reason, I'm still in ClickFunnels with my online course. Yeah. And I haven't really gotten any complaints, and on some level I do like the simplicity of the course, the course platform in ClickFunnels, but if they continue to go and not update things, not update their course platform and just focus a hundred percent on their sales funnels, eventually I'm going to have no choice but to move off of.
Paul Lipsky: ClickFunnels.
David Krohse: What would be the specific things that you would want your students to be able to do that they're not able to do right now?
Jacques Hopkins: That is a good question. From a student side, I'm not sure exactly. I'm not sure exactly what I would be. Looking for them to do. But to give you an example of my side, their page editor is still the old page editor for their course for, for when you're editing your course.
Right. And they've, they've, since they've updated their page editor for their funnels and everything, probably a couple of years ago, and it's so nice, their page editor is phenomenal. That's one of my favorite things I like about ClickFunnels. But when you go start editing your course, it's clunky and it's the old page editor and.
There's a lot to be desired from the editing side, but I've, I've tweaked things, gotten things to a point where I'd like how the end product looks when somebody logs into the course. But I think that, you know, your teachables you think effects your Kajabi and so on, are going to continue to add features, add user experience features, and just kind of leave ClickFunnels behind. That's why I say that.
David Krohse: Yeah. Well, I went back and listened to Paul's first episode and at the very last like sentence that you said was, well. I hope that you come back in a year or so and things are 10 times better. And I mean, I was just just so thrilled to hear this like interview a year and a half later and I feel like, I feel like that prediction or that expectation came true.
I mean, he now has two courses, 3000 students, and then living, living his dream of traveling the country. So I mean, that was the main thing that as I listened to this, I'm like, this is just awesome, awesome, awesome progression and growth.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah. There's no doubt about it. I mean, I kind of caught him toward the beginning of his journey last time, and now he's, you know, a couple, a couple of years in, over a couple of years in and, and things are going great and that's great that, you know, it didn't fizzle out.
He's still, but you know, he, he works hard on it. He's always testing things and he definitely knows, knows what he's doing. I thought the conversation about. Two versus three YouTube videos was very interesting because obviously I had that conversation with David Waldman as well. So for those listening, you know, if you're, if you're weighing between two and three videos a week, Hey, two different people so far have said, we've tested it.
Two videos is just fine. I've never gotten to a point where I put out two. YouTube videos a week. You know, I, I aspire to do one, but I, you know, I am doing two podcast episodes a week, and that's working really well. And it's very similar to the way that Paul is doing his YouTube, where he's got one, you know, highly produced a YouTube video and then more of a live.
And that's kind of what I've done with this podcast as well. So I thought the two versus three YouTube videos per week conversation was pretty cool.
David Krohse: Definitely. What.
Jacques Hopkins: About right? Okay. No, let's cut. Let's cut that. And you, you start, you start it up. It's hard when we're not seeing each other. I know.
David Krohse: Okay. So currently I have been researching and considering using one of the proof type type apps or plugins. You said that you are researching, changing from get proof.com so what, what are you looking at now?
Jacques Hopkins: I have been using proof source based on Paul's recommendation. Proof was getting a little too expensive for me, and I looked at, there's so many of those now. I think proof might've been the first one, but there's so, so, so many of those little social proof plugins I started looking around and proof source just.
It it, you know, everybody's got a trial. So I tried it out and I love it. It's not as expensive. The features are great and the way that I've implemented them, I'm pretty excited about how I've implemented it. I've had it running for a few weeks now, basically, since I recorded the conversation with Paul, and if you go to my home page, then you basically get these.
Notifications of recent testimonials, written testimonials on Trustpilot. It automatically sucks it in from Trustpilot. And so these testimonials are just popping up, and if you click on it, it'll take you to the testimonials page. So they are clickable. And then on the testimonials page. I have like how many people opted in for the free workbook within the last 24 hours?
I think I've got that one running on several pages, so that's on the testimonials page. A lot of the blog posts, you click on that you actually go to the opt in page, which is cool. Once you're on the optin page, it gives the individual notifications. It'll say, you know, John from Canada opted in right.
Eight minutes ago, and Sally from Connecticut opted in 12 minutes ago and so on. And then the last different type that I implemented is on my order form. And what it is, is it tells you how many people signed up, you know, purchase piano in 21 days in the past seven days. So, you know, sales have been going really well.
So I think right now, if you go to the order form, it says like. Maybe 140 a hundred it says 140 future PNS purchase piano in 21 days in the past seven days. So a lot of different ways that it's just showing social proof. And I've been really digging proof source and, and I think it just adds to the overall user experience of my website and my funnel.
David Krohse: So this might be a dumb question, but with proof source then, do you currently use Zapier. Or is it, did you say that it automatically gets it?
Jacques Hopkins: No, it's so to collect the data, no, you just drop in a little piece of code on all the pages of your website, and I use Google tag manager for that. It makes it really, really easy and, and it's, it's pretty seamless. You just drop in that code throughout your site and it's, it's smart enough to know what it needs to know.
David Krohse: Okay.
Jacques Hopkins: Awesome. Yeah, it collects the data really well. So I would, you know, if you're, if you're looking into some of these plugins, David, than a proof sources, the one that I've settled on. One other.
David Krohse: Question that I had kind of for you. You mentioned just how your current webinar, the button to buy, it doesn't pop up until later like, like how important do you feel like that is that people don't, don't have the option to buy like right away in a webinar.
Jacques Hopkins: Well, I think one of the keys there is the price, right? The price can scare people away at the beginning once they don't truly understand what they're getting, the benefit that they're getting.
And so by having the button, they are right at the beginning of a, of a two hour evergreen webinar. Somebody can just click that button and see, Oh, it's 497 this guy is, you know, this guy is, is scamming people charging four 97 for a piano course. I'm out of here. Whereas if if I don't include that button and they don't know the price, then they can actually go through my, my webinars, see me teaching certain things, see me breaking down certain false beliefs and also doing the stack where you, you, you know, for me, I convey the value at like $3,200 and then bring it down. So it's this whole psychology thing that by the time you actually reveal the price of four 97 it actually seems like an amazing deal versus a scale.
David Krohse: Okay. That makes sense.
Jacques Hopkins: Yeah, that's a, that's the way I do it. Yeah. And so Paul's now using my click funnels evergreen webinar template, and he says it's going really well. I got an update from him more recently than that conversation. And it's interesting, a lot of, a lot of people who are very successful with courses are now using that template and loving it. So as you can imagine, Nate Dotson is using it and he was probably the first person to implement it, and it's going great for him.
Paul's now using it. Stephanie Taylor rent to rent is does very well with her course and she's now using it also at least Dharma, at least dharma.com she's got a huge Instagram course. She started using it and she, she's probably, she probably did the most modifications to my template cause I was looking at hers yesterday just to see how it was going.
And mine has like this black background. And, and she made hers all pretty, you know, very congruent with her brand, her Instagram brand, and hers is white and it's got all these cool like fonts and graphics and things, but it's still at the core. It's my template and it has my features in it. And she said it's going really, really well for her as well.
So a lot of people are starting to use this template and I'm excited about it. I'm a see, I'm excited to see, you know, months and months and data down the road. How, how well it's working for people. So. If you're not familiar with that out there. Basically I used to use ever webinar for about a year and a half, switched to a newer, much, much more simpler system.
That is way better for both you and the user on the other end, and you can get that template for free by signing up for ClickFunnels with my link, which is the online course guy.com/click David, are you using it yet? I am.
David Krohse: I don't feel like I have it. I simplified it compared to what you have. Like I don't have that button. I don't have the actual price pop in. You know, 40 minutes into the webinar, so I don't, I don't have the full functionality that you recommend.
Jacques Hopkins: But I'm sure you'll get there eventually.
David Krohse: That's the goal.
Jacques Hopkins: Slowly but surely. All right, cool. Any other takeaways from this conversation with Paul.
David Krohse: No, I don't think so.
Jacques Hopkins: The last thing here is, is the very last thing he said was about less is more simplify and I couldn't agree more with that and I mentioned that on in the conversation with him. So look, that's going to do it. David, thank you so much for joining me for another episode here. Thanks to Paul. Thanks for thanks to Kelly for that one of the week, and thank you everyone out there for listening to another episode of the online course show.
For all the notes and links from today's episode, you can find those by going to the online course, guide.com/one 32 and for more resources for your online course journey, whether you're a complete beginner. Or you've already started on this path, have an online course already, and just looking at this kind of scale up, head to the online course, guide.com all kinds of things there for you.
So thanks again everyone. We'll talk next week.
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